I just think it's funny that the one subclass that is called a defender has to get a kill to make his ability work.
It's like a healer has to hurt someone before they are allowed to heal them. Like wtf!?

I agree, WTF? It makes no sense to me.

As an alternative, I'd consider swapping the warlock/titan activation of melee benefits. Warlock triggers only on kill, Titan triggers on hit.

I'm okay with that, but I am Titan biased. But just to not get overkill, I think it makes the most sense to just do it on the defender.

Yes! I've always thought that Warlock melee should do less damage & Titan should do more.
Possibly it could be limited to only knock back on a charged melee?

That seems like a good compromise :)

I just think it's funny that the one subclass that is called a defender has to get a kill to make his ability work.
It's like a healer has to hurt someone before they are allowed to heal them. Like wtf!?

I agree, WTF? It makes no sense to me.

As an alternative, I'd consider swapping the warlock/titan activation of melee benefits. Warlock triggers only on kill, Titan triggers on hit.

Yeah... still, with a charged melee:

Voidwalker's gives inherit bonuses regardless of how else it is set.
Sunsinger's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.
Stormcaller's has double extra extended range regardless of how else it is set.
Gunslinger's throws a short range knife no matter how else it is set.
Bladedancer's has extended range no matter how else it is set.
NIghtstalker's throws an incredibly annoying smoke bomb no matter how else it is set.
Striker's does extra damage no matter how else it is set.
Sunbreaker's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.

Defender?

Absolutely, completely, and totally nothing unless you get a kill.

You can't even spec for faster melee recharge like several of the other classes...

I just think it's funny that the one subclass that is called a defender has to get a kill to make his ability work.

It's like a healer has to hurt someone before they are allowed to heal them. Like wtf!?

I'm not sure about the knock-back though. Sounds good, but I'm really concerned about it. It will be game changing. It may be okay if the damage was really reduced. My major concern would be that they may be able to make it impossible/difficult for the Titan to get close enough with it's t-rex arms to land a blow. Possibly it could be limited to only knock back on a charged melee?

Striker Titan already puts at least some armor builds down to 1 pixel of health left. I'm very curious to see if a Striker + new Feedback Fences can let me get punched then execute a one melee kill... even on a Flame Shielded Warlock!

The Warlock idea is interesting. I don't so much like getting knocked around... but apparently more of that is here (Sunbreakers Solar Vent seems to have a knock back effect) and coming via a more powerful Solar Wind option on the Sunsinger's melee.

I was just thinking about the melee abilities of the various classes, and how bungie could perhaps tweak things to make them more balanced without making them the same. A few ideas popped into my head. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks:

Warlocks:

A big deal with Warlock Melees is that they have the longest range, and the Warlock tends to gain something from a successful melee hit (overshield, grenade charge, etc).
What if bungie leaned into these characteristics to change the way warlocks use their melee. I was imagining something like extending the range even a little further (imagine short range jedi-style force push), adding a slight "knock back" effect, but drastically reducing the damage (I'm thinking 3 melee strikes to kill) as well as slowing down the strike itself a little bit.

This would make the Warlock melee require a bit more foresight to use effectively, but gives it some interesting strategic potential. Imagine you see a hunter blinking towards you; you anticipate the inevitable blink/shotgun combo and use your melee/force push to bounce the approaching hunter back out of shotgun range and engage with your primary.

Hunters:

Hunter melee could stay roughly where it is for my idea. Middle of the road in terms or range, speed, and damage (still a 2-strike-kill).

Titans:

Since Titans have the shortest range on their melee, I think it would be interesting to increase their melee damage. They could still be a 2-strike-kill, but a single strike would do massive damage... enough to almost kill a fully-shielded guardian. I think it would also make sense for Titans to have a slightly faster melee than the other classes, to help emphasize their "brawler" nature.

What do you think?

I just like the idea of what you say for warlocks, but making their melee almost useless at close range. So they actually get damage fall off the closer their enemy is. I don't care if you have a long melee, but you should be !@#$ed if a titan gets in close with his melee. That sounds more realistic in this universe. And as you say, Hunters should stay the same, because ultimately, they choose to have a good melee, or a good ranged melee.

Warlocks:

A big deal with Warlock Melees is that they have the longest range, and the Warlock tends to gain something from a successful melee hit (overshield, grenade charge, etc).
What if bungie leaned into these characteristics to change the way warlocks use their melee. I was imagining something like extending the range even a little further (imagine short range jedi-style force push), adding a slight "knock back" effect, but drastically reducing the damage (I'm thinking 3 melee strikes to kill) as well as slowing down the strike itself a little bit.

This would make the Warlock melee require a bit more foresight to use effectively, but gives it some interesting strategic potential. Imagine you see a hunter blinking towards you; you anticipate the inevitable blink/shotgun combo and use your melee/force push to bounce the approaching hunter back out of shotgun range and engage with your primary.

Hunters:

Hunter melee could stay roughly where it is for my idea. Middle of the road in terms or range, speed, and damage (still a 2-strike-kill).

Titans:

Since Titans have the shortest range on their melee, I think it would be interesting to increase their melee damage. They could still be a 2-strike-kill, but a single strike would do massive damage... enough to almost kill a fully-shielded guardian. I think it would also make sense for Titans to have a slightly faster melee than the other classes, to help emphasize their "brawler" nature.

What do you think?

Voidwalker's gives inherit bonuses regardless of how else it is set.
Sunsinger's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.
Stormcaller's has double extra extended range regardless of how else it is set.
Gunslinger's throws a short range knife no matter how else it is set.
Bladedancer's has extended range no matter how else it is set.
NIghtstalker's throws an incredibly annoying smoke bomb no matter how else it is set.
Striker's does extra damage no matter how else it is set.
Sunbreaker's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.

Defender?

Absolutely, completely, and totally nothing unless you get a kill.

You can't even spec for faster melee recharge like several of the other classes...

Of course, the Defender still has some very odd limitations. Like, it is the sole Subclass whose melee ability does absolutely nothing unless you get a kill.

Hey, at least it doesn't spend the charge until it triggers, unlike every other on-melee-kill melee ability I've seen. :p

Bungie started signaling a nerd to Stormcallers and a buff to Sunsingers months ago. I just hope they do enough... and that they dispense with the notion that it's ok for a single subclass (the Defender) to have a significantly worse k/d and point spread than every other subclass.

A Sunsinger buff would be an unthinkable disaster in Trials.

Just a question: have you tried playing as a Stormcaller? I don't think it's quite as easy to dominate with the Super as you are making it out to be. I'd say I'm normally pretty happen with 2-3 kills, and I am much more confident making better use of the Golden Gun. Also, trying to use Landfall usually gets me killed rather that killing anyone, it's AOE really isn't that large.

Well, two things:
1. I rarely play with classes or weapons I think are overpowered. I didn't go Thorn when Thorn was everything. I don't have a 1000 Yard Stare. Etc. Back in the Halo days I'd rarely pickup a shotgun, preferring to beat enemies fairly.
2. I actually don't like Stormtrance very much as a Super even when I'm using it. The hover animation annoys me. Losing my guns annoys me and leave me open to long range attack.

There are times, though, that its duration and ability to kill via arcing absolutely make it extremely over powered... like when someone kills you on one side of Frontier then spawnkills you on the other before their Super runs out. But my hatred towards Stormtrance is as much or more about how it popped by "indestructible" Ward of Dawn without the other player so much as looking my way or even attacking, and how Stormtrance very much blurred the lines between classes as it essentially gave the Warlock most of the powers of a Striker Titan all at the same time (blinding, area of effect attack, health regen) and then went on to last another 20 seconds.

I will once again argue that a lower k/d for Defender is just fine. Wasn't there also a statistic that said that Defenders had a higher win percentage than any other class? Don't forget that in addition to the Ward of Dawn itself, you drop 2-3 orbs for every other player on your team in a place of your choosing, helping them to charge their supers. Perhaps instead of trying to use Ward of Dawn aggressively to take ground, it's best used to consolidate areas already under control? There is that +15 points for each kill your teammates get when under Blessings effects.

Remember, the Defender was considered so amazing by the Destiny community that Bungie could not fit their label into the Crucible subclass usage chart!

That boost to a team's winning percentage? None of us knew it existed (see chart above) because it isn't exposed in any of the in-game data. No, most people think the Defender is a PvE only class because its sole way to contribute (besides getting your team killed as they hide in your "indestructible" bubble) is to Suppress enemies.

Similarly, that 15 point Support bonus is pretty crappy. Think about it, you put down a bubble and just how many people do you expect to kill if everything goes perfectly? 6. (Any more than 6 and your enemies are just complete idiots) Well, 6*15 = 90. Congrats, you almost earned your team the equivalent of another zero control point, zero bonused kill. More typically you + your team will get two to three kills that can be attributed to your bubble. That's only 30 - 45 extra points... That's less than a single Assist! All the Blessings or Weapons of Lighting you did for your team typically don't matter as much as a single Assist, according to the Crucible's scoring...

Now, you and I know that the above chart is kinda dumb. A single Defender can, if played well, shut down enemy Supers, hold down a point, get your team an area of the map they were struggling with, or keep a Heavy Ammo crate in your possession. I am very sure I have been the Guardian that has turned many games around, not by killing, but by using Ward of Dawn at the right place and the right time. But playing a Defender well is a good deal more difficult than any other class.

Of course, the Defender still has some very odd limitations. Like, it is the sole Subclass whose melee ability does absolutely nothing unless you get a kill. It, along with the Sunsinger, cannot earn credit for Super kills. Titans are also the only Class that does not have access to an auto-targeting grenade like the Fire or Arcbolts or Axion Bolts. Heck, it took Bungie a year and a half to decide that maybe just maybe having all Titan melees be 15+% shorter than every other class was a bad move...

Bungie started signaling a nerd to Stormcallers and a buff to Sunsingers months ago. I just hope they do enough... and that they dispense with the notion that it's ok for a single subclass (the Defender) to have a significantly worse k/d and point spread than every other subclass.

A Sunsinger buff would be an unthinkable disaster in Trials.

Just a question: have you tried playing as a Stormcaller? I don't think it's quite as easy to dominate with the Super as you are making it out to be. I'd say I'm normally pretty happen with 2-3 kills, and I am much more confident making better use of the Golden Gun. Also, trying to use Landfall usually gets me killed rather that killing anyone, it's AOE really isn't that large.

I will once again argue that a lower k/d for Defender is just fine. Wasn't there also a statistic that said that Defenders had a higher win percentage than any other class? Don't forget that in addition to the Ward of Dawn itself, you drop 2-3 orbs for every other player on your team in a place of your choosing, helping them to charge their supers. Perhaps instead of trying to use Ward of Dawn aggressively to take ground, it's best used to consolidate areas already under control? There is that +15 points for each kill your teammates get when under Blessings effects.

I guess we'll find out an hour or so.

The fact that it combines the powers of Arc Blade (+chaining) with Fist of Havoc should immediately tell you something is wrong with Stormtrance's design. Heck, I seem to recall calling that out based just The Taken King's early trailers.

This is interesting to me. Of the 3 new classes stormcaller is least interesting to me. The flavor is great, not as much the function. I've grown to like it, but it's not perfect by any means. When it was new I felt overpowered. Now it's as hit or miss as any other super I use from any other class.

Or, put it this way, if a Titan could smash your team then continue Supering them across the map for another 10 or 15 seconds would that be ok?

Uh, can't they already do that using hammers and sunspots?

No. A Sunbreaker is much more easily evaded and runs out significantly quicker. At long range, they have reach but can't hit crap that is airborne. At close range they have to point the correct direction and aim. Stormcallers, with their 360 degree area of effect Super activation and lightening chaining? Not so much.

I get that this is a rant thread. I agree that stormcallers can be frustrating at times. So can a number of other supers. I guess I jumped in because people were crying "nerf!" I don't know that stormcaller will get used much at all with a substantial nerf. I already don't use it much for trials or small-group PvP. If I list longer chaining it would be okay, but not great. If I lost damage I probably wouldn't use it much at all.

Well it sure as heck needs to lose something. In PvE a Stormcaller can zap many many lower level enemies very quickly. Compared to any other Super their advantage is clearly overwhelming. In PvP they kill around corners, they kill up close when pointing the wrong direction, they kill when they are directly above you and couldn't otherwise attack you. And once they are done with that, their Super lasts so long that the people I play with all frequently curse the Stormcaller that kills them, crosses a large map, then kills them again.

Bungie started signaling a nerd to Stormcallers and a buff to Sunsingers months ago. I just hope they do enough... and that they dispense with the notion that it's ok for a single subclass (the Defender) to have a significantly worse k/d and point spread than every other subclass.

But, again, last night I watched a Stormcaller destroy my Ward of Dawn without even attacking it (via Landfall), kill me, and then watched him go off and kill another two or three teammates who were significantly across the map. (I died at B on Twilight Gap, teammates died in the upper middle and upper tunnel, I think.)