Some members of the community seem to believe that matchmaking can only be focused on 1 criteria; SBMM or connection quality, for example. We know that's not the case. We know matchmaking searches based on a hierarchy of criteria. Taking what Bungie tells us at face value, we know that connection quality is the top priority. Why then does the crucible suffer from lag and latency issues so frequently? Well the most logical explaination is that the netcode really is that bad (from a PvP standpoint). Those games filled with yellow and red bar players, magical kill-trades, shots through walls or around corners, etc... those really are the best connections available at that time.

Just some of my ruminations on the matter here...

People need to realize that these matchmaking algorithms aren't just running from their own perspective. They need to remember that these algorithms are run for people who have a crappy connection. Perhaps the crappy-connection-person's 'net' has caught you & that's why you get matched up w/ red bars. This may not account for all of the red bars, but it certainly could explain how you get matched up with one or two, or with a fireteam with a few of them.

I wonder if the population of Destiny has a higher percentage of red-bars than other games... perhaps, of all the pvp games these crappy-connection-people have Destiny provides the best experience?

I don't know how these things work. My observations might be way off base.
I noticed during Iron Banner, especially Supremacy Iron Banner, that it seemed there were more red bars than usual. That could be very subjective as I don't play a whole ton of PvP aside from Iron Banner.

During Supremacy Iron Banner I felt like there was always at least 1 red bar on each team, or two red bars on one team. Consistently. I wondered if the 2 red bars play host, and all the extra objects/crests littered on the map require extra bandwidth/load to pinpoint, track, and update. What if certain red bars are people with the best connection playing host, and don't actually necessarily have poor connection? I tried to consistently report bad connection so that if there is a wrinkle like that, that maybe a pattern would be able to be formed at HQ

What if the in game connection bar we see is not a fully accurate representation at all times? There have been cell phones in the past that do not show an accurate connection strength with the "signal bars". In the past there is no science or standards to the number of bars indicated on a cell phone, it is more-so UI than a fully accurized representation, at the whim of each manufacturer and wireless provider

I'm not a game developer. I wasn't there to witness all the work that went into creating every aspect of Destiny's PvP experience. All I know is that, along with a few elements that I really love, Destiny PvP is frequently a frustrating experience on many levels. From connection issues to balance problems to map/gametype designs to weapons that don't seem to behave the way players expect them too, etc. The average crucible match has me saying "oh COME ON" out of exasperation/frustration at least once per minute.

And yet, I've had a much different experience. Destiny has consistently been one of the most reliable games that I've played. When there is an issuee, it's usually limited to one player, or to the people who are actually red/low-yellow bars. Overall, the game always plays well, and I haven't been dropped from a game in ages.

I've already put close to 30 hours into Titanfall 2 PvP, and I have had precisely ZERO moments of frustration so far.

That's funny. I recall us having numerous issues with trying to connect, getting dropped, and playing some really buggy games (you yourself pointed out that you were getting major lag in that one game where I was MVP and you were at the bottom of the scorecard (I know that likely doesn't narrow down any specific games, but...), and then you got flat-out dropped the next match).

I do often find myself sitting and watching the enemy kill cams to see how I died, and while 9 times out of 10, it's totally acceptable, I've seen a few instances where the enemy that killed me shouldn't have been able to.

In the end, it is anecdotal. If you remember, CheapLEY talked about how wonderful Halo 5's dedicated servers worked, and I recently borrowed an Xbone to play some Halo, and I kept getting this on the one match that I played. So yeh.

I think Destiny does it better than most other games, so I'm with Bungie in this instance. Now if only ammo boxes worked more reliably...

Some members of the community seem to believe that matchmaking can only be focused on 1 criteria; SBMM or connection quality, for example. We know that's not the case. We know matchmaking searches based on a hierarchy of criteria. Taking what Bungie tells us at face value, we know that connection quality is the top priority. Why then does the crucible suffer from lag and latency issues so frequently? Well the most logical explaination is that the netcode really is that bad (from a PvP standpoint). Those games filled with yellow and red bar players, magical kill-trades, shots through walls or around corners, etc... those really are the best connections available at that time.

Just some of my ruminations on the matter here...

People need to realize that these matchmaking algorithms aren't just running from their own perspective. They need to remember that these algorithms are run for people who have a crappy connection. Perhaps the crappy-connection-person's 'net' has caught you & that's why you get matched up w/ red bars. This may not account for all of the red bars, but it certainly could explain how you get matched up with one or two, or with a fireteam with a few of them.

I wonder if the population of Destiny has a higher percentage of red-bars than other games... perhaps, of all the pvp games these crappy-connection-people have Destiny provides the best experience?

With your doctor scenario if you responded to him sending you away with "you're lying, it IS tennis elbow!" you still look like a crazy person.

"Excuse me but I've watched a lot of medical shows, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about" :p

The funny thing to me is SBMM is still the worst thing to happen to Destiny PvP (for my personal preferences anyway). Just not for the same reasons reddit is always shouting about.

To me it seems like if you went to the doctor complaining about tennis elbow. The doctor says "No, it's not tennis elbow" then sends you on your way. But you still have an injured elbow, and the doctor has done nothing to help. Who benefits from this scenario?

I'd be much, much more interested in hearing why there's a problem in the first place than just hearing about what it's not.

And honestly, your post didn't bother me very much because you're not calling the whole thing a conspiracy. It's the crazy echo chamber (not on here) of "Bungie is lying about SBMM!" that's driving me up the wall. I completely agree there are some matchmaking and netcode issues (as well as their communication concerning it), but they are not lying to us about what they said. Why would they even lie about SBMM?

Thanks. I really do try to be reasonable!

I don't think Bungie is lying, but it does feel like they're avoiding the elephant in the room: Destiny pvp has loads of depth and potential but is hamstrung by shoddy netcode with frequent latency issues. And Bungie's silence sounds like they're ignoring the problem, which does not bode well for Destiny 2.

Of course, Bungie's track record is not good when it comes to telling the truth and SBMM because they have provably lied about it in the past. So I understand why people wouldn't just believe them. The communication really sucks. Bungie needs a "come to Jesus" moment in regards to their pvp experience. Between Battlefield 1, Titanfall 2, and Call of Duty 2145 or whatever it is (the first ad I saw for it, I thought it was a new halo game, no joke), the pvp arena on consoles is full of stellar performers and Destiny 1 simply does not compete on a fundamental level, even though the actual gameplay (sans network issues) could easily be the gold standard. Instead, I'm looking for anything to take my pvp time away from Destiny because I just don't need that level of disappointment and frustration in my life.

This THAB post (and all of them, really) also reeks of avoiding the real issues with the pvp, how frustrating it is, how easy it is to exploit, and how often lag is a large factor in combat success and failures. Instead of acknowledging that there are problems, bungie is saying "those things you're accusing us of aren't true" while ignoring that the accusations are only attempts to explain the larger and obvious issues with pvp reliability.

Understand that Bungie doesn't have the resources to do significant work on the PvP code for Destiny. All hands are on deck with Destiny 2. You will simply have to wait until 2017 for anything to improve. Just like the Marathon 2 patch that never came! :-p

Players will drop out, the pool will get worse, and so will your matches, causing more players to drop out…

If the experience is so bad (in my experience it's not that bad at all, but I play very little these days), then you should just wait and come back for Des2ny.

I fully understand that, which is why this latest THAB is so depressing.

And honestly, your post didn't bother me very much because you're not calling the whole thing a conspiracy. It's the crazy echo chamber (not on here) of "Bungie is lying about SBMM!" that's driving me up the wall. I completely agree there are some matchmaking and netcode issues (as well as their communication concerning it), but they are not lying to us about what they said. Why would they even lie about SBMM?

This is pure supposition on my part, based on what Bungie has told us combined with the common experiences of many players;

Some members of the community seem to believe that matchmaking can only be focused on 1 criteria; SBMM or connection quality, for example. We know that's not the case. We know matchmaking searches based on a hierarchy of criteria. Taking what Bungie tells us at face value, we know that connection quality is the top priority. Why then does the crucible suffer from lag and latency issues so frequently? Well the most logical explaination is that the netcode really is that bad (from a PvP standpoint). Those games filled with yellow and red bar players, magical kill-trades, shots through walls or around corners, etc... those really are the best connections available at that time. I have played many Crucible matches that ran relatively well (not "best in class", but acceptable), so I'm sure Destiny's netcode is capable of running a decent game. It could just be the case that conditions need to be absolutely ideal for that to happen. Anything below near-perfect conditions, and things go very wrong.

This THAB post (and all of them, really) also reeks of avoiding the real issues with the pvp, how frustrating it is, how easy it is to exploit, and how often lag is a large factor in combat success and failures. Instead of acknowledging that there are problems, bungie is saying "those things you're accusing us of aren't true" while ignoring that the accusations are only attempts to explain the larger and obvious issues with pvp reliability.

Understand that Bungie doesn't have the resources to do significant work on the PvP code for Destiny. All hands are on deck with Destiny 2. You will simply have to wait until 2017 for anything to improve. Just like the Marathon 2 patch that never came! :-p

Players will drop out, the pool will get worse, and so will your matches, causing more players to drop out…

If the experience is so bad (in my experience it's not that bad at all, but I play very little these days), then you should just wait and come back for Des2ny.

And I do agree with your points that matchmaking is a problem. It's reddit screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS BUNGIE?!?" accusing them of lying that's ridiculous. Yes, there is a problem with matchmaking, yes it should be addressed. Saying "you're theories are wrong, here's why" is not lying because it doesn't address the issue. A logical person would respond with "That's great, now what IS going on with lag, and what are you doing to address it?" instead the Internet loves to turn it into a fight over picking apart a dozen of Bungie employees' words to show any inconsistencies (some real, some a stretch, and some imagined) across a year+ period. And people wonder why Bungie isn't more transparent.

</rant>

Sadly, the "What about this Bungie" is actually fanboys like myself hoping that the issue is fixable, and presenting wishful thinking that the problem is something easy to patch. But Bungie has now shut down the only "fixable" issues that the community can think of. Not sure if you read my above post, but it now appears that whatever is responsible is pretty much relegated to the fundamental structure upon which the pvp netcode is built. Which means that the problems with destiny pvp are very, very, very unlikely to ever be fixed in Destiny 1.

This THAB post (and all of them, really) also reeks of avoiding the real issues with the pvp, how frustrating it is, how easy it is to exploit, and how often lag is a large factor in combat success and failures. Instead of acknowledging that there are problems, bungie is saying "those things you're accusing us of aren't true" while ignoring that the accusations are only attempts to explain the larger and obvious issues with pvp reliability.

Respawn, the developers of Titanfall 2, are intentionally refraining from giving the community specific details with regards to balance updates. They'll say things like "we've made some balance adjustments to the Tone Titan", or "we've tweaked primary weapons a bit"... and that's all. No specifics about what exactly has been changed, no percentages or numbers. This looks to me like a direct response to Reddit's tendancy over-analyse and dissect every tiny detail, leading to pre-conceived biases before they've even played the update. It will be very interesting to see how this policy works out.

And even with all that Legion is still overpowered ;)

But seriously, as more time goes by watching the Internet shred update notes before the update is even released I've been thinking that is a better way to do it.

And I do agree with your points that matchmaking is a problem. It's reddit screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS BUNGIE?!?" accusing them of lying that's ridiculous. Yes, there is a problem with matchmaking, yes it should be addressed. Saying "you're theories are wrong, here's why" is not lying because it doesn't address the issue. A logical person would respond with "That's great, now what IS going on with lag, and what are you doing to address it?" instead the Internet loves to turn it into a fight over picking apart a dozen of Bungie employees' words to show any inconsistencies (some real, some a stretch, and some imagined) across a year+ period. And people wonder why Bungie isn't more transparent.

</rant>

Yes, some people really do take it too far. But Bungie HAS been misleading in the past. They're in an extremely tough position, of course.

On an interesting side note, I came across this last week.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/285318/Titanfall_2_dev_experiments_with_giving_less_data_in_patch_notes.php

Respawn, the developers of Titanfall 2, are intentionally refraining from giving the community specific details with regards to balance updates. They'll say things like "we've made some balance adjustments to the Tone Titan", or "we've tweaked primary weapons a bit"... and that's all. No specifics about what exactly has been changed, no percentages or numbers. This looks to me like a direct response to Reddit's tendancy over-analyse and dissect every tiny detail, leading to pre-conceived biases before they've even played the update. It will be very interesting to see how this policy works out.