Apropos of kinda related, wife and I have been gourging on M.A.S.H. lately. I never watched it until now. Hawkeye is my hero. We need more people like him.

The irony of you bringing this up isn't lost on me in that the subtext of M.A.S.H. (especially the great Altman film on which the series was based) was a criticism of the Vietnam War, the last overt hot war the U.S. fought to try to stop what Lenin started. M.A.S.H. was one of my favorite shows growing up. I even had a Radar toboggan I picked up at an Army surplus store.

I suspect I might view a few episodes as a little preachy now, but Hawkeye was an undeniably great character who provided a voice of conscience, which is especially necessary during war.

The other night I saw the scene where he tears into Radar for being naive. Powerful stuff, I think. Very Mal Reynolds there... which is good. Makes him human, you know?

Stopping barbarism is one of the few justifications for violence, but once the violence starts, there's a huge risk of becoming barbaric yourself. And that's probably an opening to reel this back in and consider Daisy. I definitely wanted more MLK and less Malcom X in Daisy, and perhaps in a different timeline there was a different kind of Daisy, or maybe she didn't have access to tears where she could see a Ghandi or a King in action. On the other hand, maybe a different Daisy did try that approach and it didn't work in Columbia. The effectiveness of Ghandi and King relied on awakening the conscience of the majority, something that might not have been possible in any 1912 reality. Given Levine's penchant for mixing up current historical trends, it makes sense that Daisy's rhetoric is reflective of the Marxist thought that was gathering steam in that timeframe.

Yeah, half the "fun" of justifed violence is knowing exactly when to stop - when is enough enough and your foe stopped? We certainly don't have that down yet.

I like what you said at the end there - makes Daisy a person of her time, which is really all she could be. 1912 didn't have the hindsight of two world wars and the spectre of nuclear armageddon to inspire "oh shit give peace a chance srsly guys."

Maybe Bioshock is talking more about the violence that's inherent in our world, the kinds of issues that have always been issues. I'm thinking of "No Country for Old Men" now, where that old hermit-Yoda guy tells Tommy Lee Jones' character that, "This has always been a violent area." I've never, ever thought he was just talking about that little border-town in Texas.

Apropos of kinda related, wife and I have been gourging on M.A.S.H. lately. I never watched it until now. Hawkeye is my hero. We need more people like him.

The irony of you bringing this up isn't lost on me in that the subtext of M.A.S.H. (especially the great Altman film on which the series was based) was a criticism of the Vietnam War, the last overt hot war the U.S. fought to try to stop what Lenin started. M.A.S.H. was one of my favorite shows growing up. I even had a Radar toboggan I picked up at an Army surplus store.

I suspect I might view a few episodes as a little preachy now, but Hawkeye was an undeniably great character who provided a voice of conscience, which is especially necessary during war.

Stopping barbarism is one of the few justifications for violence, but once the violence starts, there's a huge risk of becoming barbaric yourself. And that's probably an opening to reel this back in and consider Daisy. I definitely wanted more MLK and less Malcom X in Daisy, and perhaps in a different timeline there was a different kind of Daisy, or maybe she didn't have access to tears where she could see a Ghandi or a King in action. On the other hand, maybe a different Daisy did try that approach and it didn't work in Columbia. The effectiveness of Ghandi and King relied on awakening the conscience of the majority, something that might not have been possible in any 1912 reality. Given Levine's penchant for mixing up current historical trends, it makes sense that Daisy's rhetoric is reflective of the Marxist thought that was gathering steam in that timeframe.

...Also nothing Daisy Fitzroy does in the game, including shooting a crying kid, is as damaging to as many people as the day-to-day oppression perpetrated by Comstock’s society.

God forbid we call both instances bad.

This line really bothered me, and initially it was because this writer so casually justifies the execution of a child, but I got to thinking about it, and that's exactly the kind of logic that fueled the Bolshevik revolution, and many of the other murderous political movements in human history.

"Freedom is a bourgeois prejudice. We repudiate all morality which proceeds from supernatural ideas or ideas which are outside the class conception. In our opinion, morality is entirely subordinate to the interests of the class war. Everything is moral which is necessary for the annihilation of the old exploiting order and for the uniting the proletariat. Our morality consists solely in close discipline and conscious warfare against the exploiters." -- Lenin

Hitler did something similar, reputiating all morality that didn't serve the master race.

^This

Apropos of kinda related, wife and I have been gourging on M.A.S.H. lately. I never watched it until now. Hawkeye is my hero. We need more people like him.

...Also nothing Daisy Fitzroy does in the game, including shooting a crying kid, is as damaging to as many people as the day-to-day oppression perpetrated by Comstock’s society.

This line really bothered me, and initially it was because this writer so casually justifies the execution of a child, but I got to thinking about it, and that's exactly the kind of logic that fueled the Bolshevik revolution, and many of the other murderous political movements in human history.

"Freedom is a bourgeois prejudice. We repudiate all morality which proceeds from supernatural ideas or ideas which are outside the class conception. In our opinion, morality is entirely subordinate to the interests of the class war. Everything is moral which is necessary for the annihilation of the old exploiting order and for the uniting the proletariat. Our morality consists solely in close discipline and conscious warfare against the exploiters." -- Lenin

Hitler did something similar, reputiating all morality that didn't serve the master race.

(And relatively speaking, we're all pretty ignorant. What was that Socrates' said...?)

Ignorance is bliss? :-D

Maybe with Daisy, it wasn't "power corrupts" but that "power assists the corrupt" or "the corrupt seek power."

I mean, duh, bad person acts badly, but why do we seem to assume Daisy is good and that she only turns bad when she gets power (which I think was kind of Rashashingo's point)?

In Daisy's case my take is that the desire for revenge corrupts.

The insistence that the story has a simple "power corrupts" theme trips us up, like with that writer Ragashingo linked to who complained that power shouldn't corrupt before power is acquired. Right, but bloodless revolutions are noteworthy only because of their bloodlessness.

Why have Americans and the British remained so chummy (other than a shared heritage)? It doesn't hurt that the Atlantic Ocean made it difficult for American forces to destroy Windsor Castle. (Let it be said they very likely couldn't have regardless, but you get my point.)

I mean, duh, bad person acts badly, but why do we seem to assume Daisy is good and that she only turns bad when she gets power (which I think was kind of Rashashingo's point)?

(And relatively speaking, we're all pretty ignorant. What was that Socrates' said...?)

I don't think you're not ignorant at all.

That should be:

I don't think you're ignorant at all.

Me, on the other hand ....

I totally get what you're saying about subtlety, and I'm on record for hating that line in Halo 4, and that's because it connects dots no one needs help connecting.

I think I'm subconciously bringing this up so you'll agree with me. :P

We're getting into sensitive territory here, but it seems that many of BioShock Infinite's critics wanted it to be a different story than it is--specifically, they wanted a morality tale about racism (the evils of white racists in particular). They wanted the dots to be connected in a very specific way. I submit that what makes the game edgy is that racism is presented as something more complicated, as something like a disease that can be spread to its victims. The danger of this presentation is that it runs the risk of removing moral judgment. Booker speaking out is a counter to that.

This is an excellent point. Your argument has lessened my ignorance, sir.

I don't think you're not ignorant at all. The game inspires all kinds of thoughts and discussions, and to me THAT'S why it deserves to lauded.

I'm not saying Levine was 100% successful in what he was trying to do, but racism--its sources and effects--is presented, thoughtfully and with nuance. Much more so than that Daniel Golding article suggests.

I agree. Ragashingo's take down of it was enough for me.

Actually, I was addressing the article that Jillybean originally linked to, but both articles make some of the same points.

Hate to keep teasing, but I've got more to say. It's a rich game.

The part about her thinking the game itself is racist sticks out to me as the common thing many people do which is avoid even the slightest appearance of racism rather than everyone learning to distinguish real racism. Talking about race and talking about individuals is not in itself racist. If a person of any race is a bad person is someone out there going to call that person racist for portraying their race as bad?

I wonder if they've ever read/watched The Boondocks?

I totally get what you're saying about subtlety, and I'm on record for hating that line in Halo 4, and that's because it connects dots no one needs help connecting.

I think I'm subconciously bringing this up so you'll agree with me. :P

We're getting into sensitive territory here, but it seems that many of BioShock Infinite's critics wanted it to be a different story than it is--specifically, they wanted a morality tale about racism (the evils of white racists in particular). They wanted the dots to be connected in a very specific way. I submit that what makes the game edgy is that racism is presented as something more complicated, as something like a disease that can be spread to its victims. The danger of this presentation is that it runs the risk of removing moral judgment. Booker speaking out is a counter to that.

This is an excellent point. Your argument has lessened my ignorance, sir.

I'm not saying Levine was 100% successful in what he was trying to do, but racism--its sources and effects--is presented, thoughtfully and with nuance. Much more so than that Daniel Golding article suggests.

I agree. Ragashingo's take down of it was enough for me.

That's why I tend to hate political correctness, because it feels like an attempt to paper over our problems rather than confront them.

Oookayyyy . . . time for me to step away from this thread.

His words are very true. Political Correctness is worse than censorship.

With censorship, you at least know who is censoring you. With political correctness, you CHOOSE to censor yourself, unaware of where the pressure actually comes from. It's a toxic sludge that must be eliminated, along with laws against hate speech, holocaust denial, and blasphemy if we are to live in a better world.

I know that I've got Indian-killing, slave-owning ancestors in my family tree, and I don't fault them too much for their actions, nor do I feel that guilty about it myself. What matters is what we do in the present to right past wrongs. Overreacting to a video game is focusing on the wrong idea of what the problem is.

This is of course why the game sucks: it uses racism to make the villain seem bad. Because racist = bad.

But as you point out, 150 years ago, owning slaves was socially acceptable. I'm sure a lot of good people owned slaves. Who were they to argue with accepted social convention? Lots of people in lots of reviews of Django Unchained call Leonardo Dicaprio's character an evil slave owner. From what I can tell, he actually seemed like a pretty good one. He let the slaves live in the house, and generally was concerned for their welfare. His rationalizations for slavery based on skull bumps is just his way of justifying something that he probably has reservations about in the first place. I mean, why else would a man go to such great lengths to justify slavery?

Had you grown up in the South at that time, you probably would have owned slaves too, because it was acceptable and expected. It only seems wrong now in hindsight.

That's why hitting us over the head with how racist Comstock was in order to make us think he's a bad dude is so ridiculously cheap, and uninspired.

Elizabeth and Booker are probably not supposed to be sexual towards each other. I'm sure the game never meant to imply that. But it does. It does because men are sexy and women are vulnerable and those are my expectations of a game. Infinite never tries to subvert that, or play on it or do anything other than say "oh and by the way she's also his daughter."

A missed opportunity for sure! But hey, Hideo Kojima already did that.

Just to speak for at least myself (and I assume davidfuchs too) that we weren't saying you shouldn't speak to people respectfully

I've seen plenty of people use PC talk in passive aggressive and venomous passes at other people. It's kinda hilarious to mix nuteralized speech with a toxic corporate sentiment.

Ok - firstly, I suspect we're probably not using the same definition of politically correct.

Secondly, I don't think I accused Infinite of being a racist game - or if I did, what I should have said was "no more racist than any other game in the society we live in". I think it tries to do well, bringing in named black characters. It gets a star for that.

I just think that the story it tells with black characters (and white characters) is pretty shite, and in bringing up the racism card itself, it cannot then escape examination about race by saying "ah but that's not what we were going for".

And now I really will depart from this thread.

Okay, I understand, I wasn't trying to get offensive. The response to the article posted was pretty separate from your complaints (at least for me, can't speak for everyone). Generally I use the definition of PC from Wikipedia which tends to talk about it as Padraig did in his reply to my previous comment which is a language that is appropriate for businesses and politicians because they are a public mouth-piece, but isn't (usually) very helpful in everyday life. I just to speak for at least myself (and I assume davidfuchs too) that we weren't saying you shouldn't speak to people respectfully, but merely saying it shouldn't be an obsession and something that we dance around.

That's more or less my viewpoint, too. As for judging a work of art beyond its intent, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Ok - firstly, I suspect we're probably not using the same definition of politically correct.

Secondly, I don't think I accused Infinite of being a racist game - or if I did, what I should have said was "no more racist than any other game in the society we live in". I think it tries to do well, bringing in named black characters. It gets a star for that.

I just think that the story it tells with black characters (and white characters) is pretty shite, and in bringing up the racism card itself, it cannot then escape examination about race by saying "ah but that's not what we were going for".

And now I really will depart from this thread.

Okay, I understand, I wasn't trying to get offensive. The response to the article posted was pretty separate from your complaints (at least for me, can't speak for everyone). Generally I use the definition of PC from Wikipedia which tends to talk about it as Padraig did in his reply to my previous comment which is a language that is appropriate for businesses and politicians because they are a public mouth-piece, but isn't (usually) very helpful in everyday life. Just to speak for at least myself (and I assume davidfuchs too) that we weren't saying you shouldn't speak to people respectfully, but merely saying it shouldn't be an obsession and something that we dance around.