I *AM* doing something about it. I am currently not playing Destiny 2. I have not purchased the current season pass, and I do not intend to. I have not claimed these "rewards" this system says I am entitled to, because I don't think they should exist. And I am here, on this forum and elsewhere, expressing the opinion that developers and publishers should not engage in anti-consumer practices, that media and consumers should call out developers and publishers, even ones they LIKE, for engaging in anti-consumer practices, and take into account these practices when making decisions about what games to buy, what services to subscribe to, and what games to play and support.

If you had come in here, when this thread was heating up with opinions about which side of whatever line in the sand Bungie was on today, and made some of these points in your inimitable way, I wouldn't have said a word.

Hell - if you had come in late (as you did), and made your points as you have in the last couple of posts, I wouldn't have said a word.

But you didn't.

You came in late, and you came in with drive-by snark, and you didn't follow it up with anything else germane to the state of the industry for 40 more posts (about a day).

If daily visits are too infrequent then I guess there's not much to be done about it. I apologize.

I mean... you posted between that drive-by and your discussion of the current problems with the industry... but it was mostly about how it was okay to take shots at Cheapley.

It is OK to refute CheapLEY's argument by pointing out arguments it is similar to. Unless we're saying there's a new Godwin's law that applies to FLOTUS, which would be an interesting statement, to say the least.

I'm not saying you have to stay on topic here. (I mean, if that were a rule, we'd have closed down years ago.) I'm saying you're being disingenuous if you're trying to claim that your involvement in this thread has been about a discussion on the industry.

... what the hell else is it about?

In response to what I viewed as some rather valid and on-topic discussion about whether Bungie's practices are anti-consumer (which they are, in my personal opinion) CheapLEY came in to contribute "who cares". This is designed to stop discussion. It is designed to accuse people of concern trolling. It is designed to bolster a status quo that I see as negative.

I haven't the foggiest idea why you'd think that the point of my doing this was "ooh, look, I get to take a dig at CheapLEY" as if that was my motivation. But I will absolutely take a dig at bad faith debate tactics like "who cares" in service of a negative status quo.

(Your last comment on this subject was "If this is the level of incivility that justifies a thread lock it's simply not going to be possible to discuss anything of any import regarding the industry." Dude - you weren't discussing the industry - you were adding to a general level of hostility here that makes ME tired... and I'm probably the most patient reader this forum has.)

Yes, I was discussing the industry. Saying I'm not seems to indicate your real issue is the political content, but there's no discussion of the industry at this time without discussion of regulation and regulation is politics.

Saying that bad actors in the industry, or in the discussion of an industry, are like other bad actors in other contexts does not change the topic of conversation to be that other context. I think you chose to fixate on that, and decided that everything else I wrote on the subject was just a disguise to get in a political remark. It was not. I don't know why you would think that, beyond the fact that it really bothered you that I did it, and you wanted to talk about that part and not the rest.

I was disappointed that this place has gotten so combative that even NARCOGEN feels comfortable coming in with a cheap shot, and not much else until I threaten to shut the thread off. That's all.

Why was that a cheap shot? Did you notice that you calling it a cheap shot led to CheapLEY also claiming it was a cheap shot, despite him claiming that 1) he didn't get it and 2) he wasn't bothered by it?

Pointing at nihilism and calling it nihilism is not a cheap shot. Pointing out defeatism and calling it defeatism is not a cheap shot. Pointing out that one person saying "I don't care, neither should anyone else" is like another person saying "I don't care, and neither should anyone else" is not a cheap shot. One might make the argument that comparing a small bad thing to a big bad thing degrades the level of discourse about the BIG bad thing, but I seem to notice nobody is even bothering to make that argument, and since the "big thing" in the context of this forum is videogames... well...

I quit Facebook because my country's politics are like this. I used to come here to escape from the constant fighting. But it's here now. And that sucks.

This forum isn't separate from the country or countries from which its readers hail, or from the world as a whole. It is part of it. The videogame industry isn't separate from the world. It is part of it. These things were always true, even when it was easier and more convenient for more people to pretend that it wasn't.

Movie quote time!

"We are the world in small. A nation is a human thing. It does what we do, for our reasons."

My reason for responding in this thread at all is that "who cares" is toxic. It says a lot to me that that slides, but the comparison to another sphere in which it is acknowledged that "who cares" is toxic was what really caused the objection.

If there's proof that this forum is now so combative that one should feel disappointed about it, it's not that I felt comfortable calling out "who cares" as being toxic. It's that the default position was to defend that statement because my criticism referenced a nearly identical statement, but in a political context, and calling that reference "cheap".

I haven't purchased the season pass either. However, don’t necessarily lump in a season pass with anti consumer practices. Fundamentally, it’s no different than shareware. Have a sample, then if you like pay to get the whole thing. Nothing about that is inherently scummy. It certainly CAN be, but it’s not rotten to the core like micro transactions are.

I was not saying it was.

I was merely listing my actions in response to the usual "nobody ever does anything, they just talk".

I don't like how Destiny 2's design currently makes me feel about playing on a regular basis.

But I enjoy new actual content. So I bought the DLC and the season it came bundled with, and no more.

I'm not saying you have to stay on topic here. (I mean, if that were a rule, we'd have closed down years ago.) I'm saying you're being disingenuous if you're trying to claim that your involvement in this thread has been about a discussion on the industry. (Your last comment on this subject was "If this is the level of incivility that justifies a thread lock it's simply not going to be possible to discuss anything of any import regarding the industry." Dude - you weren't discussing the industry - you were adding to a general level of hostility here that makes ME tired... and I'm probably the most patient reader this forum has.)

I was disappointed that this place has gotten so combative that even NARCOGEN feels comfortable coming in with a cheap shot, and not much else until I threaten to shut the thread off. That's all.

I quit Facebook because my country's politics are like this. I used to come here to escape from the constant fighting. But it's here now. And that sucks.

(Geeze this post of mine is a downer.)

It's going to be a long 2020, and I'm going to stop that point there. So... here is a broad brush statement that I'm about to make; It would be unwise to expect fresh water from a sewage pipe. I direct that at no one, but only to actions. Made again, and again, and again.

I've already made a post about this, so I might not need to say much more. I think there are those of us here that have taken what you have built, and the kindness that built it, for granted Wu. I don't know if I have a solution of... well... that you'll like anyway. If the kids can't play nice with the toys, they lose the toys. Make it Destiny only. Or ban the topics the bring such ire. Or add permissions to accounts/ a reputation system/ Quarantine thread (which would be the soft ban) and make the main forum invite only. I hate this. It's some cast system bull. Yet I also grow tired of mucking through the bull myself. The egos. The selfishness. The fight for the last word. The sheer lack of self discipline and discourse. You know... classic human shit no one is immune to, but some of us seem to imbibe into far to readily. Drop of a hat.

Yet such ideas presented requires more implementation then ya want to do right? Then you should have to do. To a point I agree, and I can't blame ya. I don't want to blame ya. What are you going to do Wu? Nothing? All this will pass as it does, but if that's what you're going to do - can you complain?

In recent reflection, the discourse here seems two fold. First, as a reflection to the Health of Destiny The Game. If there was more to speak of in Destiny, we would, I think. In the down time though, it's all being filled with classic antagonizers with the illusion of discussion. Economics & Systems, Politics, and "Your Mother is so fat". Second, many of the old voices have gone silent here. The social pickings have lessened over time.

Why do we have so many (by my count 759-sh) people signed up to this forum, and yet we see so few? How much of that provides clean water?

But sometimes you're behaving like one and you need someone to call you out on it so you can stop.

...

...

I'm talking about Centrist, of course.

Edit to add: I really am, I dont think anyone here is being the other C word. I just couldn't resist the framing device.

I was disappointed that this place has gotten so combative that even NARCOGEN feels comfortable coming in with a cheap shot, and not much else until I threaten to shut the thread off. That's all.

I quit Facebook because my country's politics are like this. I used to come here to escape from the constant fighting. But it's here now. And that sucks.

I think that’ll always be an issue when people are either overly sensitive (like Narc), overly arbitrary (like Cody), or overly centrist (cheapley) on a major subject. In this instance, real-world monetization of universe-game rewards that impact gameplay.

No reason for lack of civility, but as someone who gets frustrated when people start getting snarky, I can always tell where the catalyst for a snowball effect is, and what direction an argument is going to head pretty early. Which is why I dipped out of the thread for the most part.

Let’s remember that nobody’s a bad guy on this forum (except car15, that douche), so let’s not take dismissal of our perspectives to heart.

Namaste.

I *AM* doing something about it. I am currently not playing Destiny 2. I have not purchased the current season pass, and I do not intend to. I have not claimed these "rewards" this system says I am entitled to, because I don't think they should exist. And I am here, on this forum and elsewhere, expressing the opinion that developers and publishers should not engage in anti-consumer practices, that media and consumers should call out developers and publishers, even ones they LIKE, for engaging in anti-consumer practices, and take into account these practices when making decisions about what games to buy, what services to subscribe to, and what games to play and support.

If you had come in here, when this thread was heating up with opinions about which side of whatever line in the sand Bungie was on today, and made some of these points in your inimitable way, I wouldn't have said a word.

Hell - if you had come in late (as you did), and made your points as you have in the last couple of posts, I wouldn't have said a word.

But you didn't.

You came in late, and you came in with drive-by snark, and you didn't follow it up with anything else germane to the state of the industry for 40 more posts (about a day). I mean... you posted between that drive-by and your discussion of the current problems with the industry... but it was mostly about how it was okay to take shots at Cheapley.

I'm not saying you have to stay on topic here. (I mean, if that were a rule, we'd have closed down years ago.) I'm saying you're being disingenuous if you're trying to claim that your involvement in this thread has been about a discussion on the industry. (Your last comment on this subject was "If this is the level of incivility that justifies a thread lock it's simply not going to be possible to discuss anything of any import regarding the industry." Dude - you weren't discussing the industry - you were adding to a general level of hostility here that makes ME tired... and I'm probably the most patient reader this forum has.)

I was disappointed that this place has gotten so combative that even NARCOGEN feels comfortable coming in with a cheap shot, and not much else until I threaten to shut the thread off. That's all.

I quit Facebook because my country's politics are like this. I used to come here to escape from the constant fighting. But it's here now. And that sucks.

Ohhh, you're one of those.

If you can't use your words like a grownup, without belittling people, maybe you need to take a little time

There's just a LITTLE bit of hypocrisy here. Can you see it?

In a microscope, yeah.

Would it be possible, maybe, to make your point without stooping to what you're accusing others of stooping to? I'd really appreciate it.

(I've already asked if this could stop. Nobody seems to give a damn. Mostly because EVERYONE seems to want the last word. I'm gonna ask again - and then I'm gonna lock this thread. All of you - can you find it in your hearts to let the last word go, this time? You've ALL made your points.)

Wow, really?

If this is the level of incivility that justifies a thread lock it's simply not going to be possible to discuss anything of any import regarding the industry. Because increasingly any criticism of the industry on any level devolves into "boycott or GTFO".

Of course you're right, everyone does want to have the last word-- heck, that's what I'm doing here now! Again! And frankly, I enjoy these thread about as much as anyone else-- which is to say, not one damn bit.

I think what bugs me is that some people leave a thread by knocking over the table and throwing all the pieces on the floor, and somehow it's "the other side's" job to be civil and let the discussion end instead of pointing out there's now a huge mess on the floor.

"I didn't mean it, it was a joke, you misinterpreted me, you're overthinking this, it doesn't really matter, nobody really cares, it doesn't matter anyway, I already took it back..."

Yeah, sorry. Not letting stuff like that be the last word.

And? What did your complaining accomplish?

Other than complain, what did you actually do? What will you do now? If this is the line in the sand, what will you do now that they’ve crossed it?

This isn’t the rest of it’s saying you should have been louder, this is the rest of us saying that it didn’t matter then and doesn’t matter any more now.

EDIT: I don’t speak for anyone else, so let me change that—this is ME saying it doesn’t matter.

Cool. So you're retracting your retracting? Cool, cool.

So now let me say, genuinely, “who cares?” Because it sure seems like the answer is basically no one, or if they do, they don’t care enough to actually do anything about it, which amounts to the same thing.

This is the kind of bad faith bullcrap I was calling you out for, and you had the gall to play victim when I did it.

Nobody cares, or if they do, they don't care enough, or if they care enough, they didn't DO anything about it, and if they did anything about it, it didn't matter.

That argument can get into the sea, right now.

I *AM* doing something about it. I am currently not playing Destiny 2. I have not purchased the current season pass, and I do not intend to. I have not claimed these "rewards" this system says I am entitled to, because I don't think they should exist. And I am here, on this forum and elsewhere, expressing the opinion that developers and publishers should not engage in anti-consumer practices, that media and consumers should call out developers and publishers, even ones they LIKE, for engaging in anti-consumer practices, and take into account these practices when making decisions about what games to buy, what services to subscribe to, and what games to play and support.

You are here trying to extend your opinion that you do not care about these issues and are not personally affected by them, and expanding it to other people shouldn't either, and that the people who do care don't matter. It's not just that you don't care. You don't want others to care, either, and you want to invalidate the idea of caring.

Nuts to that.

Would it be possible, maybe, to make your point without stooping to what you're accusing others of stooping to? I'd really appreciate it

Certainly, I'll concede that point. Feel free to imagine I turned the other cheek. Everything else holds up.

And? What did your complaining accomplish?

Other than complain, what did you actually do? What will you do now? If this is the line in the sand, what will you do now that they’ve crossed it?

This isn’t the rest of it’s saying you should have been louder, this is the rest of us saying that it didn’t matter then and doesn’t matter any more now.

EDIT: I don’t speak for anyone else, so let me change that—this is ME saying it doesn’t matter.

So now let me say, genuinely, “who cares?” Because it sure seems like the answer is basically no one, or if they do, they don’t care enough to actually do anything about it, which amounts to the same thing.

There is one small matter in this post I'd like to point out for a second. I've been reading all the posts in this thread and I agree it should stop, since it's gotten a little too big. Sorry Wu, I know you said that you want the arguing to end—I'm not trying to spread any flames here, and I promise I won't post in this thread again...unless someone asks me about food.

The question 'what did you actually do' is one that can't really be answered. Technically, there isn't anything we as the public can do otherwise, even in large numbers. We can write a letter or e-mail, but no matter how nice or civil the containing words are, it's basically the same as a complaint. Either way, it'll drown in fan mail, UN-civil complaints, and death threats. We can't really boycott a newly free game which already has millions of players, old, new, and old-new. Online petitions? Just a list of names. Redundantly, we also can't threaten or attack Bungie either.
Though I do believe Luke Smith deserves at least one slap to the face--open palm or backhanded, dealer's choice.
Frankly, complaining is our second strongest weapon. Boycotting is the strongest, but it would take millions to pull that off. And even though some have backed up their bluffs, I have seen a good number of "Trials or Die" fanatics begrudgingly muttering their way back online over the years.
Even then, complaining is a risk in its own. I've literally lost track of all the times Bungie Sonic Adventure 2'ed us. So while I'm not personally a fan of microtransactions/pay to win, etc. I still think feedback is, if nothing else, a place to speak your mind and maybe just maybe get the ball rolling.

Ohhh, you're one of those.

If you can't use your words like a grownup, without belittling people, maybe you need to take a little time

There's just a LITTLE bit of hypocrisy here. Can you see it?

Would it be possible, maybe, to make your point without stooping to what you're accusing others of stooping to? I'd really appreciate it.

(I've already asked if this could stop. Nobody seems to give a damn. Mostly because EVERYONE seems to want the last word. I'm gonna ask again - and then I'm gonna lock this thread. All of you - can you find it in your hearts to let the last word go, this time? You've ALL made your points.)

I think we can all agree that ultimately, as always, Korny was right.

/thread

PS. None of this drama ever happens at Warframe.Bungie.Org

Ohhh, you're one of those.

If you can't use your words like a grownup, without belittling people, maybe you need to take a little time

There's just a LITTLE bit of hypocrisy here. Can you see it?

Would it be possible, maybe, to make your point without stooping to what you're accusing others of stooping to? I'd really appreciate it.

(I've already asked if this could stop. Nobody seems to give a damn. Mostly because EVERYONE seems to want the last word. I'm gonna ask again - and then I'm gonna lock this thread. All of you - can you find it in your hearts to let the last word go, this time? You've ALL made your points.)

And? What did your complaining accomplish?

Ohhh, you're one of those. Sorry I didn't bring Bungie to their knees single-handedly, I guess? What have you done of any real merit or significance lately?

Other than complain, what did you actually do? What will you do now? If this is the line in the sand, what will you do now that they’ve crossed it?

They crossed my line in the sand a long time ago. So I voted with my wallet and refused to purchase D2.

This isn’t the rest of it’s saying you should have been louder, this is the rest of us saying that it didn’t matter then and doesn’t matter any more now.

Can you be more clear? What doesn't matter? Why?

So now let me say, genuinely, “who cares?” Because it sure seems like the answer is basically no one, or if they do, they don’t care enough to actually do anything about it, which amounts to the same thing.

Did you learn nothing from this exchange?

Me. I care. Narc cares. Cody cares. If you can't use your words like a grownup, without belittling people, maybe you need to take a little time to think about why you stooped to this level to defend a corporation.

Thank goodness we don't live in your world, where the majority opinion or belief invalidates the minority by merit if being larger.

Other than complain, what did you actually do? What will you do now? If this is the line in the sand, what will you do now that they’ve crossed it?

This isn’t the rest of it’s saying you should have been louder, this is the rest of us saying that it didn’t matter then and doesn’t matter any more now.

EDIT: I don’t speak for anyone else, so let me change that—this is ME saying it doesn’t matter.

So now let me say, genuinely, “who cares?” Because it sure seems like the answer is basically no one, or if they do, they don’t care enough to actually do anything about it, which amounts to the same thing.

So the first people who object to this are told, "don't worry, Bungie would never do X"

And then the latest people who object to this are told, "it doesn't matter, Bungie already did X"

This has always been my biggest issue with Bungie's (and others of course, but this is DBO) staunchest defenders.

When they first started doing this stuff (way back in D1!) and I was concerned that it could reach this point I was told "Oh but its only minor", "It's not a real advantage", "Slippery slope is a fallacy", "Stop being such a doomsinger".

Now that it has reached this point, it's all "This isn't new", "Why didn't you complain sooner".

Which besides being a fundamentally ridiculous argument (of roughly equal merit to "Its tradition" in terms of poor excuses), I did complain sooner. And you all told me I was overreacting.

I feel like I’m living in fucking crazy town.

You all just find the absolute worst way to interpret anything that’s ever said in this forum. I honestly wonder if it’s even worth trying anymore.

Discussing and arguing with Narcogen will harden you as a person man :-p

There's no charitable interpretation of "who cares". You're used to expressing an opinion and having it go unchallenged because you're entitled to it, because other people will back off because of civility, because they don't want to bother arguing about a game, or because they DO want to argue about games, but not about economics or politics.

You're misinterpreting their silence as acquiescence. You were trying to amplify a nihilist position, pretended to not care about the subject or others' reactions to it, and you're still doing it-- the above is just more of the same, acting as if what went on here wasn't you dismissing the idea that the topic was worth debate, but that people reacting negatively to your post are somehow prejudiced against you, twisting your words, in a way that make you want to not engage.

Yikes.

Did you mean to reply to me, or to CheapLEY?

It can be both.