I can believe the second point. But did Bungie actually say it was going to be what you want it to be? Maybe that's exactly what they want for it. a simple way to get the bare minimum for what you might need? But yeah, I agree that it needs to be upgraded with the seasons. I think that is their greatest failing of it personally.

I guess that’s exactly the point I’m making. It’s the bare-minimum, and it sums up the whole game at this point. It’s Bare-Minimum the game. If Collections is exactly what they want it to be, that’s almost more disappointing than them just not prioritizing making it better even if they want it to be.

I realize I’ve fallen into my negativity bullshit again, so I’ll bow out now. I’ll just say it’s difficult not to. We’re coming up on Bungie hyping up the new hotness, but I find that very difficult to get excited about given the now years of detritus littering the game. I know that the collections system isn’t some amazing game selling feature like a new expansion or season, but it seems like they used to care about stuff like that, whereas now they just shove it out the door, call it good enough and then move on.

You totally have your right to feel that way, I'm not putting that against you. I just had to put my two cents in about collections because for me and how I play it was the biggest boon in a long time. That's all :D

I liked it too, when it was new. Its failure to provide any utility in actually managing my, you know, collections of gear has left me really disappointed though.

The problem for me is that organization and actually engaging with the armor perks is a complete pain in the ass. The game can be totally played while ignoring that stuff. But how many people just ignore it because there’s no good way to manage it in game?

I can't really speaks to this because I haven't gone full in on that system so maybe I'm that person?

That’s ostensibly not what Collections was for, but it still speaks to my point: it’s a half-considered system to begin with, and it hasn’t grown with the changes made to the game to actually be helpful beyond the simplest tasks.

I can believe the second point. But did Bungie actually say it was going to be what you want it to be? Maybe that's exactly what they want for it. a simple way to get the bare minimum for what you might need? But yeah, I agree that it needs to be upgraded with the seasons. I think that is their greatest failing of it personally.

I realize I’ve fallen into my negativity bullshit again, so I’ll bow out now. I’ll just say it’s difficult not to. We’re coming up on Bungie hyping up the new hotness, but I find that very difficult to get excited about given the now years of detritus littering the game. I know that the collections system isn’t some amazing game selling feature like a new expansion or season, but it seems like they used to care about stuff like that, whereas now they just shove it out the door, call it good enough and then move on.

You totally have your right to feel that way, I'm not putting that against you. I just had to put my two cents in about collections because for me and how I play it was the biggest boon in a long time. That's all :D

That’s ostensibly not what Collections was for, but it still speaks to my point: it’s a half-considered system to begin with, and it hasn’t grown with the changes made to the game to actually be helpful beyond the simplest tasks.

I realize I’ve fallen into my negativity bullshit again, so I’ll bow out now. I’ll just say it’s difficult not to. We’re coming up on Bungie hyping up the new hotness, but I find that very difficult to get excited about given the now years of detritus littering the game. I know that the collections system isn’t some amazing game selling feature like a new expansion or season, but it seems like they used to care about stuff like that, whereas now they just shove it out the door, call it good enough and then move on.

Why not use DIM? Cause I don't want to use a third party app for something that is much easier for me in game. What if I don't have my phone on me? Hell, what if I don't have a smart phone? I don't use DIM because I don't need DIM to have fun in Destiny. You make it sound like a required tool to efficiently play Destiny.

I mean…It is? I suppose I am far more aware of the capabilities and benefits of DIM because know one of the developers, but I really think that even absent that I can't imagine trying to play the game without it (or some other inventory API tool). I'm not saying it is required to play, but to play efficiently? Yeah. for sure.

To get something I need that's on another char I will log off, log in that character, load the tower, move the item into the vault, log off, log back in with the right char, load the tower, pull it out of the vault, and then it's 20-30 minutes later? are people waiting for me during all of that? I'm going to leave an event to go to the tower to check to see if the postmaster is full or not? I have a dozen different versions of the same weapon. How am I going to compare them and choose what to keep? These are just the things that are baked into the gameplay loop. I have not even gotten into stuff like saved load outs or finding which vendors across 7 different locations will upgrade you at the given moment or doing the min-max stuff people talked about below.

I'm with you if your point is that it should not be this way, but yeah, it would be like playing with restraints. I don't need DIM to play Destiny the same way I don't need a headset.

I guess I should have pointed out that I'm a casual player. And in my mind you can play efficiently probably to the 90% at least without using outside sources. I think I"m being generous on that too. I want to be efficient as well, and I can easily do that at my play level (casual) with just Destiny UI.

I will say that a third party app like DIM or the Destiny app is really required for transfers between characters without a huge hassle. But I will also say that multi-character playing isn't casual in my mind. But that's personal opinion. I haven't touched my other characters, and thus had to use an app in... a year?

I donno, I don't play nearly as much as you guys and I don't min-max basically at all. So maybe to do that stuff you need DIM to be efficient. I just don't think casual players need those. And I would bet that the majority of Destiny players are casual players. But I don't have time like I use to, so maybe I'm just not in tune to Destiny as I use to be.

(also FWIW, DIM is a web site not an app so you don't need a smartphone)

I don't know how this is any better? In my household that's even worse and my computer is even in the same room as my TV just across the room. I've tried DIM for what little I would use it for and it was way more complicated that I needed it for. That's not to say it isn't a good app, it's just not for me. I use the Destiny app because it's simple and it does what I need it to without being complicated.

I encounter this commonly with Chappy's raid group - I often suggest fun combinations of perks to try out, but sometimes this causes distress and confusion because people without the familiarity have to search through their vaults for the right combinations of elemental affinity and season (which will now have sunsetting appending on top of it). I'm 100% certain those same people would find engagement with these systems enjoyable if it weren't for the frictions (not Cody's micro$ frictions) involved.

I don't usually want to jump in to a dog pile on what Bungie has or hasn't done, but I just have to comment on this one.

I have never paid attention to the season specific mods because it just gives me a headache to consider what build I'd do with who else to take advantage of being charged with light.

That said, I do enjoy (to some extent) how recent design changes in Destiny makes it easy to jump in and be effective, but if you want to get that final 5% oomf and a crunchy min/max problem to tackle, then they have it as an optional aside.

Then I have no idea what he is talking about with DIM.

I think his unstated point was that without the ability to pull an item from collections, it is just there to tell you what you have not yet acquired, which you could do with DIM (in the collections tab)

If that is true and it's his whole statement on collections, then that is a huge simplification of collections. I mean, that's fine if that's the only point he is trying getting across, but if that is the case then I feel like there should be far less animosity to the collections design if he is going to talk about it in general terms.

I agree with what you are saying, but I feel like you are making it too black and white. You can have both things. For example, I still use the armor 2.0 and weapons 2.0 when I play. In fact at least half of the stuff I use still use this system. I haven't dug 100% into it because for my play style I don't need to.

However, when I play old raids or even the new ones, I have no need to Min-Max with the new system to effectively play them well. Bungie has said that they want you to play the way you want. You like to Min-Max way more than I do and you can do that. But you can't assume that everything is for every player. Just because collections was created does it mean it's meant for you. You sure can use it, but It seems you aren't the type of player who would use it. I however use it a lot.

I guess to sum it up, I feel like Collections and the 2.0 system is a sliding scale not a one or the other.

Oh sure it's a spectrum, I just don't think it's purposeful and it's definitely counter-productive.

And actually, I'm not playing the way I want - I'd love to spend more time developing builds and using special seasonal mods, but I'm hamstrung by the agonizing gear organization time that requires. Maybe you would enjoy some of the new mod systems too, but you can't because of considerable amount of investment required.

I encounter this commonly with Chappy's raid group - I often suggest fun combinations of perks to try out, but sometimes this causes distress and confusion because people without the familiarity have to search through their vaults for the right combinations of elemental affinity and season (which will now have sunsetting appending on top of it). I'm 100% certain those same people would find engagement with these systems enjoyable if it weren't for the frictions (not Cody's micro$ frictions) involved.

At the end of the day, I simply can't believe that the systems Bungie is spending significant design capital on are intended for use by only the most masochistic of Destiny players. That's the whole point about this transmog response - implementing transmog without supporting it being used in a 100% fun way is nonsensical.

Why not use DIM? Cause I don't want to use a third party app for something that is much easier for me in game. What if I don't have my phone on me? Hell, what if I don't have a smart phone? I don't use DIM because I don't need DIM to have fun in Destiny. You make it sound like a required tool to efficiently play Destiny.

I mean…It is? I suppose I am far more aware of the capabilities and benefits of DIM because know one of the developers, but I really think that even absent that I can't imagine trying to play the game without it (or some other inventory API tool). I'm not saying it is required to play, but to play efficiently? Yeah. for sure.

To get something I need that's on another char I will log off, log in that character, load the tower, move the item into the vault, log off, log back in with the right char, load the tower, pull it out of the vault, and then it's 20-30 minutes later? are people waiting for me during all of that? I'm going to leave an event to go to the tower to check to see if the postmaster is full or not? I have a dozen different versions of the same weapon. How am I going to compare them and choose what to keep? These are just the things that are baked into the gameplay loop. I have not even gotten into stuff like saved load outs or finding which vendors across 7 different locations will upgrade you at the given moment or doing the min-max stuff people talked about below.

I'm with you if your point is that it should not be this way, but yeah, it would be like playing with restraints. I don't need DIM to play Destiny the same way I don't need a headset.

(also FWIW, DIM is a web site not an app so you don't need a smartphone)

The collections tab in general is another. It is functionally useless if you can’t pull random rolled gear out of it. It was a complete waste of resources and time when I can’t actually do anything with it. DIM already has that functionality, and they’re more than content to let DIM fill in lots of other functionality gaps, so why not just let that one ride too?

I was tracking and agreeing with you until you said this. Do you mean the collections tab in general? or are talking about a specific aspect of it?

Cause if you are talking about it generally, then I feel like you need to step back and think at a grander perspective. Because when it comes to playing varied content it is the greatest tool to be able to pull out what I need. And I don't mean the maxed out perfect roll of some weapon. I mean, for example, a void scout or that one sword that has a single perk on it.

Why not use DIM? Cause I don't want to use a third party app for something that is much easier for me in game. What if I don't have my phone on me? Hell, what if I don't have a smart phone? I don't use DIM because I don't need DIM to have fun in Destiny. You make it sound like a required tool to efficiently play Destiny.

I'm all for you voicing your opinion about how Destiny is not to your liking, but please take some perspective and think about other players (likely the majority) before you blindly blast every single design choice that Bungie has made.

I think there might be some confusion here - collections gives you access to EVERYTHING that doesn't have a random roll that you've ever received. DIM lets you mess with stuff you have on your characters or in your vault. They certainly work together... but they're not really doing the same job at all.

Then I have no idea what he is talking about with DIM.

I think his unstated point was that without the ability to pull an item from collections, it is just there to tell you what you have not yet acquired, which you could do with DIM (in the collections tab)

What you guys are describing sounds nice, but it requires completely ignoring the min/maxing aspects of the game that Bungie has baked into the current iteration of Destiny.

That's what my problem is - there are too many systems with diametrically opposed methods of engagement. Fully engaging with Armor 2.0 and Weapons 2.0 makes Collections almost completely useless and leaves you with countless annoying decisions the entire time you are playing the game. Using Collections makes the game more pleasant to navigate, but at the cost of reduced effectiveness. This is not the kind of decision a game should be asking you to make.

I agree with what you are saying, but I feel like you are making it too black and white. You can have both things. For example, I still use the armor 2.0 and weapons 2.0 when I play. In fact at least half of the stuff I use still use this system. I haven't dug 100% into it because for my play style I don't need to.

However, when I play old raids or even the new ones, I have no need to Min-Max with the new system to effectively play them well. Bungie has said that they want you to play the way you want. You like to Min-Max way more than I do and you can do that. But you can't assume that everything is for every player. Just because collections was created does it mean it's meant for you. You sure can use it, but It seems you aren't the type of player who would use it. I however use it a lot.

I guess to sum it up, I feel like Collections and the 2.0 system is a sliding scale not a one or the other.

Sure, using it to pull shaders is nice, but that’s literally the only thing I use it for.

That’s my point. It was half-baked from the start, and then it basically got abandoned. When they launched it they said they were looking into a way to pull random rolls. It’s been two years now with no word on that. Except you can pull random rolls on Ghosts and Sparrows, so it’s clearly possible.

I'm the same. I have maybe a total of 10 (and that's pushing it) favorite non-exotic weapons that I keep and everything else I pull from collections.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that limit you to year 1 legendaries? This is not a criticism in any way (I’ll probably be the most vocal supporter of the “use whatever the heck you enjoy using” approach)... I just find it surprising, given how inferior most of the year 1 weapons are compared to everything since. Between the expanded perk options and the mod slots, D2’s year 2 & 3 weapons are substantially stronger than the static rolls from year 1. Again, not a knock.

Maybe? I honestly don't play that much to notice. I think it is more than just Year one but I can't say for certain. But just the fact that I don't know means to me that I don't care enough :)

The weapons still work good for what I play with them. Not to mention, it's fun to pull out old guns that I haven't used in a long time. Like that one special Scout rifle that made things explode that was still a legendary.

I mean, new guns are fun and impressive because they are new, but year one guns are basically the same thing at this point, it's been so long since I've used them.

Hah, I hear you there :)

I do believe that the only legendary guns which can be pulled from collections are year 1 weapons and pinnacle weapons, because they all have random rolls. While I haven’t checked recently, I believe year 1 weapons lack the mod slot that all year 2 and 3 weapons have, which can make a substantial difference in some cases. Just FYI :)

That's what my problem is - there are too many systems with diametrically opposed methods of engagement. Fully engaging with Armor 2.0 and Weapons 2.0 makes Collections almost completely useless and leaves you with countless annoying decisions the entire time you are playing the game. Using Collections makes the game more pleasant to navigate, but at the cost of reduced effectiveness. This is not the kind of decision a game should be asking you to make.

I'm the same. I have maybe a total of 10 (and that's pushing it) favorite non-exotic weapons that I keep and everything else I pull from collections.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that limit you to year 1 legendaries? This is not a criticism in any way (I’ll probably be the most vocal supporter of the “use whatever the heck you enjoy using” approach)... I just find it surprising, given how inferior most of the year 1 weapons are compared to everything since. Between the expanded perk options and the mod slots, D2’s year 2 & 3 weapons are substantially stronger than the static rolls from year 1. Again, not a knock.

Maybe? I honestly don't play that much to notice. I think it is more than just Year one but I can't say for certain. But just the fact that I don't know means to me that I don't care enough :)

The weapons still work good for what I play with them. Not to mention, it's fun to pull out old guns that I haven't used in a long time. Like that one special Scout rifle that made things explode that was still a legendary.

I mean, new guns are fun and impressive because they are new, but year one guns are basically the same thing at this point, it's been so long since I've used them.

(I guess if you play a game where you never use guns you don't use every day, or never change your shaders, or your ship, or your sparrow, or your emblem... yeah, then maybe it's useless. That's not even remotely how I play Destiny, though, so I'm having trouble connecting with it. Even if you ignore the fashion game, There are over 150 exotics, and I use maybe half a dozen regularly. The rest... they come out once in a while, when someone says "let's all run X", or whatever. The idea that I'd need to keep the other 140+ in my vault (taking up space that they don't need to take up, space I don't have to spare) seems silly.)

Well, you described me. I can't remember the last time I pulled something from collections. Your point about exotics (at least the weapons) is noteable, but I like to keep them holding a slot in my vault, otherwise I'd be sharding them constantly, and I kinda like the masterwork kill counter.

I liked the masterwork kill counter until I ran out of space. Then I deleted every exotic (that didn't have an awesome roll) that was 20 levels below my current. Gained back a ton of space, never looked back. There are now a lot of exotics in my vault - but not 150.

Yeah, I don't even do this. I have my War Rigs that I keep on my person 24/7 and then there is every other exotic that I shard until I need it. I might keep 4-5 exotic weapons in my slots because I use them regularly enough.

You guys are really using Year 1 weapons and armor when you need something?

Occasionally. Something wants me to use a void pulse rifle. I don't have one in my vault. I go into collections, I grab one, I use it to do whatever. I finish, delete it.

That happens every couple of weeks or so. (Not a void pulse rifle, per se - just the "I need X, don't have it, can use a collections standin" decision.)

I'm the same. I have maybe a total of 10 (and that's pushing it) favorite non-exotic weapons that I keep and everything else I pull from collections.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that limit you to year 1 legendaries? This is not a criticism in any way (I’ll probably be the most vocal supporter of the “use whatever the heck you enjoy using” approach)... I just find it surprising, given how inferior most of the year 1 weapons are compared to everything since. Between the expanded perk options and the mod slots, D2’s year 2 & 3 weapons are substantially stronger than the static rolls from year 1. Again, not a knock.

The collections tab in general is another. It is functionally useless if you can’t pull random rolled gear out of it. It was a complete waste of resources and time when I can’t actually do anything with it. DIM already has that functionality, and they’re more than content to let DIM fill in lots of other functionality gaps, so why not just let that one ride too?

I was tracking and agreeing with you until you said this. Do you mean the collections tab in general? or are talking about a specific aspect of it?

Cause if you are talking about it generally, then I feel like you need to step back and think at a grander perspective. Because when it comes to playing varied content it is the greatest tool to be able to pull out what I need. And I don't mean the maxed out perfect roll of some weapon. I mean, for example, a void scout or that one sword that has a single perk on it.

Why not use DIM? Cause I don't want to use a third party app for something that is much easier for me in game. What if I don't have my phone on me? Hell, what if I don't have a smart phone? I don't use DIM because I don't need DIM to have fun in Destiny. You make it sound like a required tool to efficiently play Destiny.

I'm all for you voicing your opinion about how Destiny is not to your liking, but please take some perspective and think about other players (likely the majority) before you blindly blast every single design choice that Bungie has made.

I think there might be some confusion here - collections gives you access to EVERYTHING that doesn't have a random roll that you've ever received. DIM lets you mess with stuff you have on your characters or in your vault. They certainly work together... but they're not really doing the same job at all.

Then I have no idea what he is talking about with DIM.

And the idea that Collections is a worthless concept because you can't pull random rolls... eh. I use it almost every day for: exotics, shaders, emblems, ships, sparrows, year 1 guns I need for a specific reason... the list goes on. "Functionally useless" is objectively false.

(I guess if you play a game where you never use guns you don't use every day, or never change your shaders, or your ship, or your sparrow, or your emblem... yeah, then maybe it's useless. That's not even remotely how I play Destiny, though, so I'm having trouble connecting with it. Even if you ignore the fashion game, There are over 150 exotics, and I use maybe half a dozen regularly. The rest... they come out once in a while, when someone says "let's all run X", or whatever. The idea that I'd need to keep the other 140+ in my vault (taking up space that they don't need to take up, space I don't have to spare) seems silly.)

Yeah, I play the same way. I have some of my favorite stuff I use on my character, but there are so many times that I need some random weapon. Before Collections I just had to hope that I had it somewhere in my vault and then up the light level or just play with whatever I have. Now, I am not sure I have touched my vault since that collections upgrade.

It’s funny, I’m the polar opposite. Aside from shaders, I think I can count on 1 hand the number of times I’ve used the collections tab. For me, it is just about useless. I keep all my exotics and pinnacle weapons on my characters or in my vault. Aside from that, everything is use is a random-rolled legendary. If the collections tab allowed me to re-acquire random rolled legendary weapons, that would be a different story. Most of my vault space would be cleared up. But as it stands now, nothing that I’d ever want to pull from collections is able to be pulled from collections.

(I guess if you play a game where you never use guns you don't use every day, or never change your shaders, or your ship, or your sparrow, or your emblem... yeah, then maybe it's useless. That's not even remotely how I play Destiny, though, so I'm having trouble connecting with it. Even if you ignore the fashion game, There are over 150 exotics, and I use maybe half a dozen regularly. The rest... they come out once in a while, when someone says "let's all run X", or whatever. The idea that I'd need to keep the other 140+ in my vault (taking up space that they don't need to take up, space I don't have to spare) seems silly.)

Well, you described me. I can't remember the last time I pulled something from collections. Your point about exotics (at least the weapons) is noteable, but I like to keep them holding a slot in my vault, otherwise I'd be sharding them constantly, and I kinda like the masterwork kill counter.

I liked the masterwork kill counter until I ran out of space. Then I deleted every exotic (that didn't have an awesome roll) that was 20 levels below my current. Gained back a ton of space, never looked back. There are now a lot of exotics in my vault - but not 150.

Yeah, I don't even do this. I have my War Rigs that I keep on my person 24/7 and then there is every other exotic that I shard until I need it. I might keep 4-5 exotic weapons in my slots because I use them regularly enough.

You guys are really using Year 1 weapons and armor when you need something?

Occasionally. Something wants me to use a void pulse rifle. I don't have one in my vault. I go into collections, I grab one, I use it to do whatever. I finish, delete it.

That happens every couple of weeks or so. (Not a void pulse rifle, per se - just the "I need X, don't have it, can use a collections standin" decision.)

I'm the same. I have maybe a total of 10 (and that's pushing it) favorite non-exotic weapons that I keep and everything else I pull from collections.

(I guess if you play a game where you never use guns you don't use every day, or never change your shaders, or your ship, or your sparrow, or your emblem... yeah, then maybe it's useless. That's not even remotely how I play Destiny, though, so I'm having trouble connecting with it. Even if you ignore the fashion game, There are over 150 exotics, and I use maybe half a dozen regularly. The rest... they come out once in a while, when someone says "let's all run X", or whatever. The idea that I'd need to keep the other 140+ in my vault (taking up space that they don't need to take up, space I don't have to spare) seems silly.)

Well, you described me. I can't remember the last time I pulled something from collections. Your point about exotics (at least the weapons) is noteable, but I like to keep them holding a slot in my vault, otherwise I'd be sharding them constantly, and I kinda like the masterwork kill counter.

I liked the masterwork kill counter until I ran out of space. Then I deleted every exotic (that didn't have an awesome roll) that was 20 levels below my current. Gained back a ton of space, never looked back. There are now a lot of exotics in my vault - but not 150.

You guys are really using Year 1 weapons and armor when you need something?

Occasionally. Something wants me to use a void pulse rifle. I don't have one in my vault. I go into collections, I grab one, I use it to do whatever. I finish, delete it.

That happens every couple of weeks or so. (Not a void pulse rifle, per se - just the "I need X, don't have it, can use a collections standin" decision.)