I don't have it yet, but this is my next grinding goal. This season has some really sweet combos between exotics and mods that make Crucible even more fun than I found it last season.

I do want to quickly comment on stasis, since you mentioned it. I firmly believe that stasis is the worst gameplay element that Bungie has ever added to Destiny, and this topic of conversation is a great illustration of why I believe it is so awful. Stasis is the counter to EVERYTHING. It counters every single subclass ability, it shuts down every super, and the only viably consistent counter to stasis is... that’s right, more stasis. The warlock is the worst offender, as every single warlock stasis ability can freeze your opponents. Grenades, melee ability, rift, and super are all universal shutdown abilities that trump any other ability in the game. So rather than play into an interesting rock/paper/scissors dynamic, stasis is just a simple “win button”.

Is Bungie making a point about the dark side being so seductive? :-p At least in Bioshock harvesting was short term gain while saving led to the greatest benefit in the long term.

Kind of, actually. As powerful as Stasis abilities are (and yes, they're win buttons in many cases), they have a much longer cooldown than any other subclass.

That said, those longer cooldowns are negated by how successful your guardian is at getting kills, which feeds your Super frequency, and across the board, those are far more successful than any other subclass Supers.

It's a tangled web they weave.

The comparison I always come back to is Mario Kart. MK does several things to make races between players of vaguely similar skill levels a bit closer than a purely skill-based competition would be. There’s the lopsided power up system (better power ups given to drivers that are further behind), and aggressive rubber banding for the AI drivers. But there is a point when the skill gap between players gets wide enough that these mechanics actually start to backfire against the weaker player. A rookie driver might not find the steady stream of speed-boosting power ups all that helpful, as they may lack the skills to properly control their kart while moving faster. They might boost off a ledge or into a wall, or into one of the countless bananas being left behind by the drivers up front. Similarly, rubber-banding AI drivers will be pulled towards the human driver up front, meaning they’ll pull further and further ahead of the rookie driver in the rear.

This is why the people farther behind get things like red and blue shells, which home in on enemies and take little skill to target. And then there's the lighting bolt…

I do want to quickly comment on stasis, since you mentioned it. I firmly believe that stasis is the worst gameplay element that Bungie has ever added to Destiny, and this topic of conversation is a great illustration of why I believe it is so awful. Stasis is the counter to EVERYTHING. It counters every single subclass ability, it shuts down every super, and the only viably consistent counter to stasis is... that’s right, more stasis. The warlock is the worst offender, as every single warlock stasis ability can freeze your opponents. Grenades, melee ability, rift, and super are all universal shutdown abilities that trump any other ability in the game. So rather than play into an interesting rock/paper/scissors dynamic, stasis is just a simple “win button”.

Is Bungie making a point about the dark side being so seductive? :-p At least in Bioshock harvesting was short term gain while saving led to the greatest benefit in the long term.

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.

Well, most of the time Supers don't even come into play in a 5-0 Trials match. I think we can both agree that getting sniped in the face no matter where you try to attack from, or getting velociraptor rushed (not from the front, but from the sides) by players that can string together movement sequences that seem impossible are the two most common hallmarks of high level players.

I'm more frightened of trials than ever. You make it sound nightmarish!

It is indeed still much worse for the average player than it ever was in D1. :-(

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.

Well, most of the time Supers don't even come into play in a 5-0 Trials match. I think we can both agree that getting sniped in the face no matter where you try to attack from, or getting velociraptor rushed (not from the front, but from the sides) by players that can string together movement sequences that seem impossible are the two most common hallmarks of high level players.

I'm more frightened of trials than ever. You make it sound nightmarish!

I mean that this is a game almost explicitly designed to make people feel better than they are. That includes me. I’m not anywhere near top tier at this game. I’ve never gone Flawless and I don’t really expect to.

idk man, I've felt subpar in Destiny for it's entire 7 year run.

Maybe, but I’d argue that comes back to the whole awareness part of ability use. Don’t try to shoulder charge into a group of enemies, especially without back up. But I also use dodge aggressively in groups of enemies, too, just to reposition, not necessarily to escape. So it’s not always an escape ability.

I don’t disagree that Dodge is probably a “safer” ability, as it can be an escape ability. Shoulder charge may indeed be the most “high-risk” ability, but I think calling it high-risk is an overstatement.

FWIW, this is mostly theoretical to me, and centered around playing something like Control, not Trials. Control is chaotic enough that basically nothing is high-risk—there’s always someone to ambush, and a single death from a missed ability isn’t a huge cost anyway. This conversation changed entirely when centered around top tier play, but I couldn’t weigh in on that discussion.

I was going to say, I don’t think I’ve ever used dodge to move behind cover, lol.

On the flip side, I constantly use shoulder charge for exactly that (quick mid-air turn and dash through a doorway to escape an enemy firing lane).

I don’t disagree that Dodge is probably a “safer” ability, as it can be an escape ability. Shoulder charge may indeed be the most “high-risk” ability, but I think calling it high-risk is an overstatement.

FWIW, this is mostly theoretical to me, and centered around playing something like Control, not Trials. Control is chaotic enough that basically nothing is high-risk—there’s always someone to ambush, and a single death from a missed ability isn’t a huge cost anyway. This conversation changed entirely when centered around top tier play, but I couldn’t weigh in on that discussion.

Shoulder Charge: in enemy territory (presumably, unless you were picking off the weak gazelle)

Dodge: in friendly territory (you're getting shot, you dodge behind cover)

So even if they ARE disabled for the same amount of time (and they sure look like they are, from your experiments), one has you disabled in the midst of your enemies, the other has you disabled behind a rock or wall. Not exactly the same.

Wait, what? How is Dodge high-risk, by that measure? Are you disabled for a second or two after your dodge finishes? (Spoiler alert - you're not. You can fire IMMEDIATELY after dodging. Try doing that after a shoulder charge.)

So, I did the science.

I took videos of me doing a shoulder charge then firing a shotgun as soon as I was able. I took a video that contained a few of these tests. I did the same thing with a Hunter Dodge.

From the moment the shoulder charge starts to the moment I was able to fire the gun was 32 frames. That's the best I managed--most of them were 41-43 frames.

With the Hunter Dodge, every single one I did was 41-42 frames.

Worst case scenario, they're basically exactly equal, and in the best case, the Shoulder Charge was actually faster.

I transferred the exact same shotgun between characters, I didn't use any dexterity mods on either character, etc., etc. It was as fair as I could make it.

You're wrong. Not partially wrong, not conditionally wrong, just wrong. Period.

EDIT: Here's the proof, just in case.

This is in Lightworks. The blue number in the lower left is the time stamp, but the number after the decimal is actually the frame number, so it rolls over the next second at 30.

Here's the Titan stuff. The second picture is the picture I counted as frame one, the first one just shows the frame just before so you can see what I judged as the "start" of the ability. The final image is the first frame in which I could see muzzle flash from the shotgun.

Now here's the Hunter:

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.

Well, most of the time Supers don't even come into play in a 5-0 Trials match. I think we can both agree that getting sniped in the face no matter where you try to attack from, or getting velociraptor rushed (not from the front, but from the sides) by players that can string together movement sequences that seem impossible are the two most common hallmarks of high level players.

By that measure Dodge is high risk. Blink is high risk. And those don’t end with a kill a the end of them. How much time does it take to cast a rift or a wall?

Wait, what? How is Dodge high-risk, by that measure? Are you disabled for a second or two after your dodge finishes? (Spoiler alert - you're not. You can fire IMMEDIATELY after dodging. Try doing that after a shoulder charge.)

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.

See, it's hyperbole like this that keeps me out of these discussions.

I was a Titan main (and by 'main' I mean that 90+% of ALL gameplay I participated in, I was a Titan) for the first year of Destiny 1. I'm more spread out now - but I still play my Titan a lot.

And I'm TERRIBLE at shoulder charge. I've tried - it's not that I haven't tried. I'm just not good at it. I don't know of any sites that keep track of stuff like shoulder charge kills... but I'd bet that in D2 Crucible, I've got fewer than 25 (out of nearly 100,000 crucible kills). Again - it's not because I don't WANT to use it. It's not because I don't TRY to use it. It's because for me, it almost never works. I overshoot, I undershoot. I actually HIT my target but don't do enough damage. The ways I fail are far more numerous than the ways I succeed.

I'm not the BEST crucible player out there, but I'm far from the worst - and to have someone tell me that it's a brain-dead ability, providing free kills unless I'm an idiot... well, that just makes me feel bad.

You're wrong. Not partially wrong, not conditionally wrong, just wrong. Period. It is NOT a brain-dead ability. It is NOT free kills. I am living proof of that.

Basically exactly how I felt. Except I get more kills with shoulder charge :D

By that measure Dodge is high risk. Blink is high risk. And those don’t end with a kill a the end of them. How much time does it take to cast a rift or a wall?

I would call a rift high risk if you are in threat of dying, yes. Not as high because you are running across the map, you are stationary, shorting time frame, and presumably not in a dangerous location. I wouldn't call blink or dodge high risk because they actively give you an advantage while you are doing the action.

I think we just fundamentally look at it differently. It’s not high risk because if there’s a good chance they’re going to kill you before you close the gap, you shouldn’t use it. It’s a tactically unsound decision. You should disengage and reposition, or use a different ability or weapon.

It’s like saying a sniper is high risk in a ten foot long hallway because the zoom is too long. Sure, in that situation it’s high risk, but it’s also just the wrong time to use a sniper rifle. That doesn’t really make snipers high risk, it just means it’s being used inappropriately.

It's high risk because you are disabled, as a fighter, while (and for a short time after) using it. You can do everything right; pick an oblivious target, hit them from an unexpected angle, nail your shoulder charge and kill them... and still die because their teammate, who wasn't on your radar when you started the charge, comes around the corner and shoots you before you get control of your character back. Almost no other ability in the game has as long a 'disabled until fully complete' cooldown. I can throw a knife at someone, and be shooting a gun a fraction of a second later. (And yes, killing someone with a knife, then spinning and sidearm-ing their buddy you didn't notice immediately after, is a REALLY good feeling. I'm pretty sure that's the 'the game makes you feel better than you are' feeling you were talking about.)