I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.

That's not how I read what Cody said at all-- even if that is what he is saying elsewhere.

I'm not. I don't think I've ever said that ONLY streamers want this. But if I had to guess, I'd say a greater proportion of them want it than non streamers. And they certainly have more influence, both directly and indirectly.

I'd agree with that.

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.

That's not how I read what Cody said at all-- even if that is what he is saying elsewhere.

I'm not. I don't think I've ever said that ONLY streamers want this. But if I had to guess, I'd say a greater proportion of them want it than non streamers. And they certainly have more influence, both directly and indirectly.

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.

That's not how I read what Cody said at all-- even if that is what he is saying elsewhere.

Even if only a higher percentage of streamers felt this way compared to the general population, that would make his substitution a more accurate statement, without needing to assert that this desire is non-existent in the general population.

I've played with a wide-enough variety of normal, non-streaming players that I understand that a LOT of people enjoy this.

Skinner boxes work on people. And I'm one of them! These techniques also work on me, and right now I'm trying to queue to get back into the game to tick some boxes off on a checklist.

I also understand that a lot of people don't. Cody has been complaining about this for quite some time... and to me at least, it seems that over time he's gotten more certain that it's ONLY streamers that feel this way. I wanted to make the point that this is an opinion - not fact. And that it's not based on any real info.

It's not very meaningful to say a speculation isn't based on real info where it cannot be. I don't think anyone would reasonably think Cody has inside information on the topic, or think that his usual overconfident assertions require any :)

Bungie ABSOLUTELY has data that shows, one way or the other, which side of this argument is more true (you can compare player retention in seasons where the grind has intentionally been ramped up to seasons where it hasn't, for example). They have not shared this data with us explicitly, but I'd argue that they're leaning into the route that gets more players... because that's where the money is.

Where more money is, yes. Where more players are? No. GaaS is based on casting a wide enough net to get a sustainable population and then maximize the return from that population.

There's nothing about literally removing the opening campaign of your game, constantly changing the way progression works, and creating an ecosystem that's so arcane and complicated that it practically makes it mandatory to use third party tools and follow various channels that provide basic information on activities and weekly/daily changes and schedules in order to advance and play effectively that is friendly to growing a population.

Between DLCs, season passes, special editions, merch, and in-game item sales, what I'd allege Bungie knows is that there are points on the curve where you make more money from fewer people if you design a game that caters to people who play in a particular way.

Cody, I think, would argue that they've gone full exploitative, and they don't really care whether we're happy playing, or just having our hindbrains tickled enough that we can't leave. I simply don't buy that argument.

They're not as nakedly exploitive as they could be. But they're not the least, either.

What I think I probably have come around to agreeing with Cody on is that the nature of the model itself is exploitive, even if some of the most egregious practices are excluded.

Even there Bungie is being worse than it used to be-- cosmetics only was one thing, but now there are Exotic weapons that only come with preorder bundles, so...

I can’t say whether the average player prefers or merely tolerates how Destiny currently operates - that is indeed outside my scope of knowledge. But as Narcogen has explained, it’s pretty obvious which one streamers prefer.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

I feel like maybe this is an opinion with zero actual (non-anecdotal) data to back it up.

C'mon, Claude.

This is literally speculation about a pretty reasonable conclusion that nobody could have "data" to back it up with because it would require access to private communications between, oh, say, Bungie and the two well-known streamers who have been hired by Bungie in the past to consult on the game and who sign NDAs that cover everything they do while at Bungie and so are prevented from talking about it.

Datto in particular has gone on AT LENGTH during his streams over his frustration that:

* Destiny has not consistently provided enough content to make regular streaming of the game interesting or fun to play or watch;

and

* The vagaries of the algorithm that promotes videos on sites like YouTube and Twitch actively frustrate those who attempt to become "variety" streamers, leading to fewer viewers and less engagement on videos on other topics, meaning he's better off streaming more "challenge" and roll grinding content in Destiny than trying to play other games.

But I'm sure he never mentioned that to Bungie, that they hired him as a consultant without watching his streams, and that they certainly never listened to anything he said, or made any decisions about the design of the game based on things they paid him to say.

Because, of course, even if they did, I don't have "data" to back it up. Because there can't be any without someone breaking an NDA.

Or one could look at the stunningly massive orgy of evidence in the game market right now to the effect that everyone wants a game as a service model, that streaming is part of promotion of that model even more so than other models for gaming, and conclude that there's at least a correlation, if not a causal, connection between the two.

Otherwise it's merely coincidental that the kind of content that this model wants and creates also just happens to be the kind of thing that lets someone run a successful channel-- that encourages them to, in fact-- play only one game on a daily basis.

I'm not arguing that this hasn't been the (vocal) request of prominent streamers. I'm arguing that Cody's belief that it's ONLY streamers that want this is based on... nothing.

I've played with a wide-enough variety of normal, non-streaming players that I understand that a LOT of people enjoy this. I also understand that a lot of people don't. Cody has been complaining about this for quite some time... and to me at least, it seems that over time he's gotten more certain that it's ONLY streamers that feel this way. I wanted to make the point that this is an opinion - not fact. And that it's not based on any real info.

Bungie ABSOLUTELY has data that shows, one way or the other, which side of this argument is more true (you can compare player retention in seasons where the grind has intentionally been ramped up to seasons where it hasn't, for example). They have not shared this data with us explicitly, but I'd argue that they're leaning into the route that gets more players... because that's where the money is.

Cody, I think, would argue that they've gone full exploitative, and they don't really care whether we're happy playing, or just having our hindbrains tickled enough that we can't leave. I simply don't buy that argument.

::shrug::

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

I feel like maybe this is an opinion with zero actual (non-anecdotal) data to back it up.

C'mon, Claude.

This is literally speculation about a pretty reasonable conclusion that nobody could have "data" to back it up with because it would require access to private communications between, oh, say, Bungie and the two well-known streamers who have been hired by Bungie in the past to consult on the game and who sign NDAs that cover everything they do while at Bungie and so are prevented from talking about it.

Datto in particular has gone on AT LENGTH during his streams over his frustration that:

* Destiny has not consistently provided enough content to make regular streaming of the game interesting or fun to play or watch;

and

* The vagaries of the algorithm that promotes videos on sites like YouTube and Twitch actively frustrate those who attempt to become "variety" streamers, leading to fewer viewers and less engagement on videos on other topics, meaning he's better off streaming more "challenge" and roll grinding content in Destiny than trying to play other games.

But I'm sure he never mentioned that to Bungie, that they hired him as a consultant without watching his streams, and that they certainly never listened to anything he said, or made any decisions about the design of the game based on things they paid him to say.

Because, of course, even if they did, I don't have "data" to back it up. Because there can't be any without someone breaking an NDA.

Or one could look at the stunningly massive orgy of evidence in the game market right now to the effect that everyone wants a game as a service model, that streaming is part of promotion of that model even more so than other models for gaming, and conclude that there's at least a correlation, if not a causal, connection between the two.

Otherwise it's merely coincidental that the kind of content that this model wants and creates also just happens to be the kind of thing that lets someone run a successful channel-- that encourages them to, in fact-- play only one game on a daily basis.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

That's true, and I expect that streamers, especially big ones, have more impact, but I do think there are players that have the same attitude-- heck, to some degree, I am one-- what I wished for in the Halo era was regular, essentially subscription, content in the same engine, delivered regularly and more often, without a 3 year wait between installments.

Cue Switch meme: "not like this"

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.

It's intentional. This is how free to play is meant to work. When you're in, they want you to stay in, and thus keep paying. Interruptions would set you behind, so it's working as intended. It's not about having an accessible, lasting work of art.

Broadly speaking I agree. As others note below, I think it can be done better and with less FOMO-- ironically Fallout 76 does a good job with this. There's no story content you can "miss out" on by not being able to play during special events, and the limited time events are designed to be standalone.

Make the current season's Content Light Level be no higher than the player's Light Level cap from the last season. Then, each season's grind is about making the current season's content easier and pre-grinding for the next season's difficulty. I think that'd make seasonal content more tolerable, at least.

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

Neat that they tried it! How do you feel it changed the seasonal grind?

Either way, I'm beyond salvaging as a player short of them figuring out how to reinsert all narrative content (which is probably not a technical challenge they're ever going to tackle, understandably). I do hope it continues to improve for the rest of y'all, though. ^_^

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

Did they at some point say that the small level increase would continue for the seasons, but that they still wanted to do the big jumps for a big expansion? I can't remember if that was actually something I read or something I just made up in my head right now.

If it's something you made up in your head, I did the exact same thing because I seem to recall them saying something along those lines. I'd be lying if I said I cared enough to dig through the TWABs to find it, though.

I wish they would do the big jump for the expansion and then nothing for the seasons. The Pinnacle grind is the worst leveling system in any video game I've ever played and it destroys my desire to even boot the game anymore.

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

Did they at some point say that the small level increase would continue for the seasons, but that they still wanted to do the big jumps for a big expansion? I can't remember if that was actually something I read or something I just made up in my head right now.

Make the current season's Content Light Level be no higher than the player's Light Level cap from the last season. Then, each season's grind is about making the current season's content easier and pre-grinding for the next season's difficulty. I think that'd make seasonal content more tolerable, at least.

They did that - for one season (this one). They've reverted to their old style as of Witch Queen. I don't know why.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

I feel like maybe this is an opinion with zero actual (non-anecdotal) data to back it up.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.

It's intentional. This is how free to play is meant to work. When you're in, they want you to stay in, and thus keep paying. Interruptions would set you behind, so it's working as intended. It's not about having an accessible, lasting work of art.

There are better ways to go about it, though. While Genshin Impact does have seasonal events with narrative content, it's supplementary. They have character arcs that give the characters additional depth but never really impact the overarching narrative in a way that you'd be missing anything substantial had you missed the event. Additionally, the seasonal narrative events are very short. You can complete them in a matter of hours, in contrast to Destiny's seasonal events whose narratives require you to grind out parts of the event to progress. (at least IIRC)

You're not forced to keep up with a power grind if you've taken a break from the game. The difficulty scales essentially with how much you've played and nearly always requires you to voluntarily complete a quest to (permanently) increase the difficulty. I've been parked at the last difficulty gate for months because I enjoy playing at the present difficulty given the amount of investment I want to put into building out my characters. None of the content is gated from me at any time, other than the most challenging end game content and the occasional non-narrative seasonal event that's challenge oriented, and even there the only thing I'm missing out on are some bonus rewards I can do without.

There are still flaws, sure, but far more tolerable, and it's easier to stay regularly engaged to avoid dealing with those flaws anyway.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

I feel like maybe you could replace the word 'players' with 'streamers' and have a more accurate sentence.

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.

It's intentional. This is how free to play is meant to work. When you're in, they want you to stay in, and thus keep paying. Interruptions would set you behind, so it's working as intended. It's not about having an accessible, lasting work of art.

To start, I haven't played since March of 2021 and sadly I ultimately intend never to return. I really appreciated the seasonal story getting much better but I didn't have the energy to keep up with the seasonal events anymore, and the fact that the story is only available during the season and that old narrative is being removed, combined with my gameplay loop and loot struggles...it wasn't worth the effort anymore. I can at least answer in the context of how I felt over my years of playing. For overall context, I was a solo player.

I also feel this way.

I understood that seasons were added because some players wanted content to grind even when there wasn't really any new content (more narrative, novel mechanics, new environments).

Then, it made sense to ask why these activities weren't better integrated into the narrative; so we got voiceovers and lite cutscenes to do this.

So now the story comes out not just in story missions and lore cards, but also in activities locked into season passes, some of which are also time-gated.

Which seems to incentivize either going all in-- base game, DLC, and season passes-- or nothing, because it seems like nobody would really be able to understand what's going on in Witch Queen without either playing several of the preceding seasons (some more relevant than others, I expect) or watching a catchup video.

I'm not a professional, but I'm not an amateur either. I've been helping UI designers for 20 years. I don't have a degree in it, but I've watched enough usability tests and written several, so I've learned that no UI is perfect and somebody somewhere will really hate it, and you have to assess feedback in aggregate. I'm sure Bungie tested the hell out of the original UI. This stuff is way harder than it looks, and no matter how good you think it is, something will crop up in testing that will surprise you. For the record, I was put off by Destiny's UI at first. I didn't like the cursor.

I say as much in a post above, "a new coat of UI is always at least a little divisive".

That’s not at all what I mean, but I just don’t think there’s much chance of Bungie solving your issue.

Destiny’s entire UI is a fucking usability travesty. It’s total dogshit. I have exactly zero faith they could figure out any sort of tool set that would be more than barely useable for dealing with sorting gear in the vault on making value comparisons. I have even less faith it would be worth the time and effort, given all the external tools you’ve already linked for dealing with these issues. That’s a real shitty answer, I know, because it’s absolutely something they should have considered ages ago, and it’s something they should figure out. But they already got multiple people to fix their shit for them for free, so I don’t expect them to bother.

That all sounded more aggressive than I intended. Know that I’m not trying to tell you that you’re wrong or dumb for wanting Bungie to address this. My point is only: would you want to use a gear sorting and comparison tool designed by the folks that thought the Destiny UI was a good design to begin with? It seems like a lost cause to me.

That's a rather heavy handed take, even with your amended note. By and large I concur with Kerm, for the UI overall. Especially when compared to OTHER MMOs, which tend to have UI that eats up LARGE amounts of screen real estate. For the sake of the opening you've provided though, the only real nitpicks I have in the overall UI that I can recall right now is the PvP death screen and the PvE details screen.

PvP death screen shows just a gun name in a -now long- age of random rolls. Was the two tap because of the Gun Type or Multi Kill Clip X3? The game sure isn't going to tell ya, and that's rather dumb. Meanwhile, in the PvE Details screen, the whole thing is basically redundant space. It's shows how many steps are in the quest, but switching to any page past the current step gives "This quest step has not yet been revealed". Dumb. You know what happens next? I DuckDuckGo it, and POOF! Now I know all the Quest steps. They used up all this screen space and... and it's silly. Some one worked really hard on this make it look nice, but the whole purpose in its use just feels kind of redundant and poorly planned out. This impression supports some of what you ask... but.. well... switching back to the topic at hand.

As Kermit said "they could improve things in regards to the vault space and managing gear". Yet, to respond to "I just don’t think there’s much chance of Bungie solving your issue"... I know. Y'all want to know what the current name of my ever pending after-Witch-Queen rant is? No!? ...oh... WELL HERE IT IS ANYWAY! It's called "The Curse of D.I.M". I know. I know I know I know, I see it, I get it. One does not need to be a "never-enough-time" Game Dev to understand.

To answer your question...

...would you want to use a gear sorting and comparison tool designed by the folks that thought the Destiny UI was a good design to begin with?...

If their dumb UI helps the player-base to get to actually playing Destiny, instead of working to play Destiny, then yes. Whole hardly. With out delay. Because if they DID screw the pooch, OH, THE FAN BASE WOULD TELL! A new coat of UI is always at least a little divisive, but the input generated should make things even better. (Which by the way... D.I.M prevents!) Come on Bungo, let's keep this years momentum going!

Repeating Myself here again, I think this is hitting consensus, if you say nothing it only reaffirms that nothing shall be done. Over on reddit, this is a topic that seems to pop up at least once a week, like a dripping faucet. This is definitely something on folks minds, but it isn't being expressed enough. Good enough is apparently the best some folks care about, which I can't hit on too hard as life can really sand one down. I get it, but it's not right, and we as fans should hold Bungie to that higher standard. Someday I'd like to be able to do it in person, be it a job or "super specialized ninja invite", but until then...

I GET TO REDUNDANTLY ANNOY YOU ALL WITH MY RAMBLINGS! HAZZA! ;D