Emergent gameplay, being the experiences that fill in the empty space designed around them, aren't as meticulously craftable. I'd argue that emergent gameplay experiences can't reach the same quality ceiling as directly crafted gameplay. That said, the floor is bottomless for both, so there's nothing wrong with emergent gameplay.

I'm not sure I would agree. Combos were "emergent gameplay" in Street Fighter 2, and they ended up being so interesting that they are now a basic part of every single fighting game made for the last 3 decades.

Except that this case of emergent gameplay can also be designed explicitly, therefore it is not a gameplay experience exclusive to emergent gameplay. That doesn't disprove my thought.

All "emergent gameplay" can be designed explicitly. All of it is the interaction of rules in the software code, which is created by people. It doesn't appear from the realm of the supernatural, uncontrollable by man.

Anything that's the result of two or more game rules interacting can be intentionally designed.

Emergence in systems is the result of unaccounted for OUTSIDE influences. Nothing outside the game code can influence the state of the game, except for cheating devices which change memory (and thus the code), or something like a cosmic ray flipping a bit.

Emergent gameplay, being the experiences that fill in the empty space designed around them, aren't as meticulously craftable. I'd argue that emergent gameplay experiences can't reach the same quality ceiling as directly crafted gameplay. That said, the floor is bottomless for both, so there's nothing wrong with emergent gameplay.

I'm not sure I would agree. Combos were "emergent gameplay" in Street Fighter 2, and they ended up being so interesting that they are now a basic part of every single fighting game made for the last 3 decades.

Except that this case of emergent gameplay can also be designed explicitly, therefore it is not a gameplay experience exclusive to emergent gameplay. That doesn't disprove my thought.

I can't really prove my thought, nor can it be disproven. It's a feeling, and I acknowledge it as such.

Emergent gameplay, being the experiences that fill in the empty space designed around them, aren't as meticulously craftable. I'd argue that emergent gameplay experiences can't reach the same quality ceiling as directly crafted gameplay. That said, the floor is bottomless for both, so there's nothing wrong with emergent gameplay.

I'm not sure I would agree. Combos were "emergent gameplay" in Street Fighter 2, and they ended up being so interesting that they are now a basic part of every single fighting game made for the last 3 decades.

I think I've figured out the key to enjoying it all, and it's just to slow the fuck down and only do the stuff that's actively enjoyable.

Truly, oh Sage, you are a zen master of great and powerful wisdom. ;D

Heh, I did worry I was going to come off a bit like that. Who the fuck am I to say shit like that when I’ve made more angry posts about this game than maybe the rest of you combined. I’ve certainly let a whole lot of bad or underdeveloped or even just mediocre stuff in Destiny irritate me more than any video game ever should.

...

And hey, at least it’s not Halo Infinite.

Again, you're too hard on yourself man. It's all in jest and fun, with no intent to mock at all. And yes, indeed, at least it's not Halo Infinite. Where "Competitive" is more important than fun.

This is why the "abusive" relationship you describe is basically required for social games. The exception I guess would be something like Second Life, where players create things and there's no narrative or game "goal".

Despite "emergent gameplay" having its pros and cons, it can also be a non-"abusive" way of providing such a platform. Minecraft is a good example. I've never been able to get into it because it's not fun for me solo but for me the allure would be contributing to a larger goal. Having a persistent server with people I know would support that social aspect while allowing us to do whatever it was that struck our fancy.

What's a con of "emergent gameplay"?

Emergent gameplay, being the experiences that fill in the empty space designed around them, aren't as meticulously craftable. I'd argue that emergent gameplay experiences can't reach the same quality ceiling as directly crafted gameplay. That said, the floor is bottomless for both, so there's nothing wrong with emergent gameplay.

This is why the "abusive" relationship you describe is basically required for social games. The exception I guess would be something like Second Life, where players create things and there's no narrative or game "goal".

Despite "emergent gameplay" having its pros and cons, it can also be a non-"abusive" way of providing such a platform. Minecraft is a good example. I've never been able to get into it because it's not fun for me solo but for me the allure would be contributing to a larger goal. Having a persistent server with people I know would support that social aspect while allowing us to do whatever it was that struck our fancy.

What's a con of "emergent gameplay"?

I think I've figured out the key to enjoying it all, and it's just to slow the fuck down and only do the stuff that's actively enjoyable.

Truly, oh Sage, you are a zen master of great and powerful wisdom. ;D

Heh, I did worry I was going to come off a bit like that. Who the fuck am I to say shit like that when I’ve made more angry posts about this game than maybe the rest of you combined. I’ve certainly let a whole lot of bad or underdeveloped or even just mediocre stuff in Destiny irritate me more than any video game ever should.

Mostly, I’ve just given up. Destiny is the game that is. I wish it were better in many ways, it has so much untapped potential. But to reach that potential (for me), it would have to change on a fundamental level, and that’s clearly never going to happen. So now, instead of shouting into the void (unless you count Xbox party chat as the void), I’m just here for the ride. When the ride is fun, I’ll be all in. If the ride sucks, I’ll skip it until the next one comes around. I’m trying to be done with being so invested in it, although I’m smart enough to know I’ll never stop playing entirely, nor am I even at the point where I want to do that anymore. Destiny’s highs are among the tallest, and it’s lows aren’t all that low in the grand scheme, and, at least, are mostly ignorable instead of game-breakingly bad.

And hey, at least it’s not Halo Infinite.

Sorry, this is long and rambling, and only mildly an actual response to points you've made. It's just a train of thought I went down. Excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes, as I'm far too fucking lazy to actually proofread all of that. Excuse any bad takes, as I'm just a goddamn idiot.

Why would you be sorry? This was lovely. Do you have any idea how happy I am that I not only got a response, but one that is a well-enough (;D) worded ramble? Most posts are hardly this juicy. That said though, YOU WATCH YOURSELF BUCKO! There's only enough room in this forum for one guy and his ludicrously large rambling something something what was I talking about? :P lol

"It's just a train of thought I went down" is part of the fun if you're healthy about it! And in summary to what I read here, I by and large, uh, *nod* at what you say, but it's as if the frequency is different. Its quite interesting, and I'm not sure how else to put it. Some of the things you say, I'd say too, but in how I'd say it, I suppose. Like for me, instead of the original "I like it", which now has the context of

I don't think this event is fantastic by any means. When I said that I liked it, I did mean it, but that's within the context of just enjoying playing the game.

I'd say "it's about par, maybe a little less", even though me me says its WAY UNDER PAR. Little things. Stuff like that, I suppose. And from one idiot to another, you're too hard on yourself.

Now lets get to the meat and potatoes.

As for the chase not being the game, I think you're wrong. That's not to say that I personally disagree with you, but the community has spoken in that regard. Every time I bring up Power Level and chasing bullshit on the subreddit, I get downvoted to shit. I genuinely think the majority of people playing Destiny do see the chase as the game, or as the most important thing in the game. Lots of people do play this game just to see the numbers go up or to grind out the exact perfect roll on every weapon they'll shove in their vault and never use and bitch about vault space until the end of time.

The community is crazy. I would know, I'm three of them. And at this point, the larger Destiny Community in its blind calls may have broken just about as much stuff about Destiny as Bungie has, more or less. Both in and out of the game. Be it the Trash of Twitter doing what they do best outside the game, or the thus far still stagnating "Collections" System which I in-part rambled about in my Mad Opus upon Organization & Management Capacity in this blasted game, the community is crazy.

I would know, I'm four of them.

Admittedly, my apparent rebuttal about the community, and it's dire madness, is also quite easy to say. Rather lazy too, in fact. Very assumptive, but something we can all agree with somehow in someway.

...well, good thing it's all moot. That's right, In actuality I'm saying that disagreeing out of consideration of the community is crap. Total horse. The community are not the arbiters of quality, even if some of them in their fandom hearts (HIIII BUNGIE!) want to, be it directly or indirectly. At most, the community is the conscience of quality. I mean, we sure do NAG enough.

The difference is the capacity for collective professionalism, access to all the data, and the perks of knowing what you're working on for things 6 or 9 months down the line. (Nice.) Big picture stuff. Apparently the folks at Bungie even play their game, though as I've made clear time and time again, it is at times QUITE DIFFICULT to reconcile such.

Yes, the community has its takes... many MANY takes, and occasionally are right about it. Sometimes even so collectively! But I think it would be naive to think, especially now, that the community holds all the cards. So yeah, with some folks, "number go up = neutron activation" is the fun. But it does not, I'll add intrinsically, make the chase the game. Unless a person finds some deep satisfaction in the slot machine, and I hope they can find help if so, its frankly more often than not a cheap thrill. No one, sans special conditions or a story behind it, is going to call "SO AND SO DROPPED FOR ME" a memory.

But, solving a problem, figuring out the right kit, doing what you can to survive and be effective in a solo lost sector, or as a team in a dungeon or raid, that's where memories are made. That's where the game play lives. And that's where we can see the emphasis has increasingly been put upon, otherwise there would be no solo lost sector NOR dungeons. If it was only about the chase, this game would have gone hardcore "cellphone" long ago.

(Oh, and it's why by and large, I have so much stuff in my vault! ;D)

----

I think I've figured out the key to enjoying it all, and it's just to slow the fuck down and only do the stuff that's actively enjoyable.

Truly, oh Sage, you are a zen master of great and powerful wisdom. ;D

Indeed, oh wise one, I hope to see this emblazoned on a wall, much like you see with that "Live, Laugh, Love" crap. In fact, maybe I can do one better...

Nailed it! lol.

The Hand Cannon is cool, but is it really better than any other 120 hand cannon you have sitting in your overstuffed Vault?

Depending if I get the right the roll, I might replace the Vulpecula Headstone roll I have (also doubled up perk wise with Shoot to Loot & Harmony), but have been hesitant to get rid of as the doubled perks give me more options as I'm making builds. This roll is also very closely matched up to a Eyasluna I have, sans the doubled perks. If I can get a Wellspring & Headstone with some combination of Smallbore, Flared Magwell, & a Reload Masterwork, I'd be able to give myself a new option to play with, while also removing a mild redundancy. (The default reload speed on "Something New" is way too casual for my liking, and this way would at least match the speed of the Vulpecula roll I have.)

As for the shotgun "Compass Rose", I already got a PvP "God Roll" last year;

Full Choke, Assault Mag, Quick Draw, Snapshot. Reload Masterwork. It's a very snappy roll.

Hoping to get a PvE Roll of;

Rifled Barrel, Assault Mag (or Accurized Rounds), Lead from Gold (or Fragile Focus), Incandescent. Range Masterwork.

If I can get that, or something close to it, I then can do something else (still not sure yet) on "Without Remorse" (and remove from my vault the roll of it with Incandescent). I'm always trying to tune up and improve what the options are which I have to play with. One of these days I really should share a whole bunch of the Builds I've made. Now, if only Bungie would let me retroactively compress my PvE & PvP rolls into one gun, I could greatly reduce the dupes I'm holding for varied purposes.

There's a difference between seeing the dogshit and wanting it to be better and letting it make you angry.

Not angry. Rarely am I actually angry. Bemused? Frustrated? Flabbergasted? Surprised? Dumbfounded? Or even some combination of such, sure. But not angry.

I have a hard time talking about so much and making it make sense as a cohesive point, but I hope I've at least gestured towards something approaching one.

You did good.

In short, Destiny becomes more fun the less of a shit you give about the specifics. I used to feel like that's giving up, like it's just accepting a lower bar of quality.

You can do both. If it's shit, you can call it out, all while not actually giving a shit. Of course, it also matters in HOW and in what manner that calling out is done, but ultimately I think you can enjoy the ride, as long as you're sure nothing it getting hurt. But if you see something wrong, well man, call it out.

I say all this with the caveat that my attitude towards Destiny is a switch that flips seemingly at random. Some stuff just feels totally fine one day and like total horseshit the next with no real explanation. The other night, I told Korny it was neat that core playlists weapons drop with more perks in each column as you reset your ranks. He laughed and told me I bitched about that exact thing months ago in response to a TWAB in post here. I'm sure he's right.

Yep. You do seem to have your moods.

This is why the "abusive" relationship you describe is basically required for social games. The exception I guess would be something like Second Life, where players create things and there's no narrative or game "goal".

Despite "emergent gameplay" having its pros and cons, it can also be a non-"abusive" way of providing such a platform. Minecraft is a good example. I've never been able to get into it because it's not fun for me solo but for me the allure would be contributing to a larger goal. Having a persistent server with people I know would support that social aspect while allowing us to do whatever it was that struck our fancy.

Yeah, it was really fantastic.

There’s no such option for patrols or seasonal activities. Nightfalls have a bunch of difficulty options, and Master mode in Dungeons and raids, and that’s great. I want something like Legendary difficulty for Patrols and the Seasonal activity and even the current Solstice event.

Sounds like expanding Legendary to all activities is a step in the right direction.

There’s no such option for patrols or seasonal activities. Nightfalls have a bunch of difficulty options, and Master mode in Dungeons and raids, and that’s great. I want something like Legendary difficulty for Patrols and the Seasonal activity and even the current Solstice event.

The problem is they lock higher difficulties out of matchmaking. Meaning you have to find friends who want to do that stuff or basically don’t do it. It’s tedious to solo say a Legend strike. It’s possible, and it’s an okay novelty occasionally, but we’re at the point in Destiny where I don’t think it’s justifiable for those things not to have matchmaking.

I’d love if everything in the game was at least as engaging as playing Halo 1 on Normal. Lots of it is far easier than playing it on Easy with the AR modded to shoot Warthog rounds. I’m not sure there’s a realistic solution to that problem for Destiny.

Isn't that what Legendary difficulty introduced in Witch Queen was for? From what I heard, it was pretty well received as being interesting and challenging, but not punishing.

As Claude said, they’re making trade offs that I can live with in order for Destiny to continue to exist. Yea, there’s tons of room for improvement. I’d love if everything in the game was at least as engaging as playing Halo 1 on Normal. Lots of it is far easier than playing it on Easy with the AR modded to shoot Warthog rounds. I’m not sure there’s a realistic solution to that problem for Destiny. I wish they would adopt The Division 2’s world tier and modifier systems, but I can live with what we’re getting if the story continues to work as well as it is and we keep getting stuff on par with Duality. Nightfalls are still engaging, Crucible is a fucking mess, but when had it ever not been, and it’s still fun. Destiny has far more good than bad, especially when bad really just means “this is a little mindless.”

It's an absurdity that games I think of as being good at facilitating community have these weird relationships with players and in their esteem describe them as being almost…abusive. It's not enough that it just has communication features and represents a virtual "Third Place" (in fact I don't really use ANY of Destiny's communication features.) There is some attribute(s) in a type of game that supports this kind of thing. I think part of it is that most of the gameplay does not require rapt attention. It needs to offer that kind of tension, but most of the time you would not want the distraction from the socializing.

It also needs to be structured to keep players coming back, to facilitate the social interactions to begin with. As Claude said, if you put the game down after finishing it, how do you continually play it with your friends? And the only possible way to do this is to draw things out in terms of activities and grind, since it's impossible to create new substantially polished and interesting content for everyday someone might log on.

This is why the "abusive" relationship you describe is basically required for social games. The exception I guess would be something like Second Life, where players create things and there's no narrative or game "goal".

It's an absurdity that games I think of as being good at facilitating community have these weird relationships with players and in their esteem describe them as being almost…abusive. It's not enough that it just has communication features and represents a virtual "Third Place" (in fact I don't really use ANY of Destiny's communication features.) There is some attribute(s) in a type of game that supports this kind of thing. I think part of it is that most of the gameplay does not require rapt attention. It needs to offer that kind of tension, but most of the time you would not want the distraction from the socializing. I think this might be related to the "easy" charge leveled at D2 here, but it is slightly different. I do think that being too hard would also interrupt the social aspect. I think we have all seen conversations end or relationships turn acrimonious in a Raid. People don't usually become more pleasant people when they struggle.

The only time I can think of a game that I really liked as a game on its own but also had a solid and long-lived community for me was Halo 3, and honestly I don't know if that was the game or just the fact that we all came out of I Love Bees together which is a game that was magically powerful for knitting together a group of players. There was a couple of semi-solid groups that came out of the BC2-B4 era of battlefield, but it still felt more like a pickup group in the park than an actual social unit.

Wouldn't it be cool… if there was a game that was nothing but dungeons and raids? One you put down after you've conquered the challenges of them? One where you could just play them without having to get to a certain power level? :-p

I gotta say... a good part of the fun of dungeons and raids are the people you're playing with. Our wednesday night group has played together (with a few substitutions) since D1, and that's really frickin' cool. Sometimes people leave (for real-life reasons), and then come back a while later... if we were playing games that you played until you were done and then moved on, they might never come back - in fact, I doubt the group would stay together if we had to keep picking new games to play every month or two.

This is exactly the point. The buffet isn't memorable because of the food, but whom you're eating with every week. Just seems weird to me praise the buffet for that, and not your friends. The social aspect is entirely why the "buffet" style game design really works in the first place.

You praise the buffet because other presentation styles don't ALLOW for that sort of relationship. Yes, I'm praising the friendship - but I'm also praising the gameplay loop of the buffet game that is compelling enough to bring us back week after week.

::shrug::

I have tons of issues with Destiny... but at the end of the day, I really enjoy playing it. Would I enjoy it more if all of the activities were more engaging than they are? Sure. Do I think producing that much content that regularly is sustainable? No. It's a tradeoff I'm willing to live with. And I'm totally okay with it being one others don't like - I don't need to be playing the game that everyone loves, just the game that I love (as long as there are enough others like me that I have a team :) ).

Wouldn't it be cool… if there was a game that was nothing but dungeons and raids? One you put down after you've conquered the challenges of them? One where you could just play them without having to get to a certain power level? :-p

I gotta say... a good part of the fun of dungeons and raids are the people you're playing with. Our wednesday night group has played together (with a few substitutions) since D1, and that's really frickin' cool. Sometimes people leave (for real-life reasons), and then come back a while later... if we were playing games that you played until you were done and then moved on, they might never come back - in fact, I doubt the group would stay together if we had to keep picking new games to play every month or two.

This is exactly the point. The buffet isn't memorable because of the food, but whom you're eating with every week. Just seems weird to me praise the buffet for that, and not your friends. The social aspect is entirely why the "buffet" style game design really works in the first place.

Wouldn't it be cool… if there was a game that was nothing but dungeons and raids? One you put down after you've conquered the challenges of them? One where you could just play them without having to get to a certain power level? :-p

I gotta say... a good part of the fun of dungeons and raids are the people you're playing with. Our wednesday night group has played together (with a few substitutions) since D1, and that's really frickin' cool. Sometimes people leave (for real-life reasons), and then come back a while later... if we were playing games that you played until you were done and then moved on, they might never come back - in fact, I doubt the group would stay together if we had to keep picking new games to play every month or two.

You play games your way. I play them mine. I'm totally okay with that, but you usually don't seem to be. I don't get that.

(And the power level thing is way less important than it used to be, so it's hardly worth arguing about.)

I guess I disagree with that. My long ass post was that I only play the stuff in Destiny I’m actively have fun with. And there’s still nothing else in any FPS that even comes close to providing the same experience as raids or dungeons.

Wouldn't it be cool… if there was a game that was nothing but dungeons and raids? One you put down after you've conquered the challenges of them? One where you could just play them without having to get to a certain power level? :-p