Imagine we heard that for Halo 6, Joe Staten was the writing lead, Jaime Griesemer was designing the sandbox, and Marty was doing music and audio--would this information be reason enough to be excited?

Don't toy with my emotions, Kermit :(

That's a subjective thing, and something only you can decide, and something you can only decide once you've seen the movie. Please forgive me if this sounds obvious, but this was supporting the point that you're ill-informed on the movie as it stands, which you've now said is true.

Read my posts again. Where did I ever say that the new Star Wars movie is good? How could I know that? You keep responding as if I said that--I didn't.

I was explaining, because you asked, how I had been making the point that you couldn't know if it was good or not yet. What I didn't say is that you're sort of acting like it is good, already.

To be clear: As of now I've heard, read, and seen enough (which I bet money is more than you have) about the new movie such that I hope and expect it to be good, and therefore I'm excited about it. This wasn't true when the movie was announced, but every bit of info I've gleaned since then has gradually gotten me to this point, not least of which what I heard and saw last week. I wouldn't have gotten into this discussion had you not said "we know next to nothing about the script" when what I knew about the script has been a big driver of my excitement. I didn't expect the Perry Mason treatment regarding my admiration of the people involved.

Well that strikes me as weird, because it seemed like you admitted you know next to nothing about the script, you just know someone who wrote stuff you like co-wrote it (not even wrote it, just co-wrote it) and an actor you like said it's very good. That may be enough for you and that's fine, but that's not a substantial amount of information, which is what I said.

Final word from me: I think this has been a silly debate in that I somewhat agree with you--it's a good idea to keep your expectations in check. It's also silly to say someone is wrong for being excited about an experience they haven't had yet. Imagine we heard that for Halo 6, Joe Staten was the writing lead, Jaime Griesemer was designing the sandbox, and Marty was doing music and audio--would this information be reason enough to be excited? For a lot of people the answer would be yes, and I'd probably be one of them. Maybe we'd be opening ourselves up for disappointment, but here's the thing--we have to have reasons to want to experience something before we experience it and find out for sure if it's all that. And that's okay!

I feel I know more than you claim I do and less than you claim I have to know. One more time: here's why I am eager to see the new Star Wars.

1. George Lucas is not involved. For me he's now the anti-King Midas.

2. Harrison Ford has high praise for the script. That means something to me.

3. Lawrence Kasdan co-wrote the script. He's not just someone--he's someone who co-wrote what is arguably the best Star Wars script ever made into a movie.

4. The principal actors are returning to reprise their roles. Can't underestimate the importance of this.

5. Luke is now an elder Jedi, just as Ben Kenobi was. I love the symmetry of this without knowing anything else about the story.

6. Han and Chewie are together again on the Millenium Falcon, and it's clear this is a significant both as a cinematic event but also within the story. It's not just them who are "home." For all fans of a certain age this is a homecoming.

7. The emphasis on practical effects answers a big concern about the franchise. Practical effects were part of what made the original movies special. They provided some of the first cinematic views of a science fiction future that felt lived in and grounded, in no small part because of practical effects. Thematically and visually, those movies had ties to a world we knew. Lucas lost sight of this aspect of his work as his obsession with digital technology intensified. That the people who are now running the show are touting the benefits of practical effects tells me that they understand something fundamental about what made the original movies so good. It bodes well.

QED

That's a subjective thing, and something only you can decide, and something you can only decide once you've seen the movie. Please forgive me if this sounds obvious, but this was supporting the point that you're ill-informed on the movie as it stands, which you've now said is true.

Read my posts again. Where did I ever say that the new Star Wars movie is good? How could I know that? You keep responding as if I said that--I didn't.

I was explaining, because you asked, how I had been making the point that you couldn't know if it was good or not yet. What I didn't say is that you're sort of acting like it is good, already.

To be clear: As of now I've heard, read, and seen enough (which I bet money is more than you have) about the new movie such that I hope and expect it to be good, and therefore I'm excited about it. This wasn't true when the movie was announced, but every bit of info I've gleaned since then has gradually gotten me to this point, not least of which what I heard and saw last week. I wouldn't have gotten into this discussion had you not said "we know next to nothing about the script" when what I knew about the script has been a big driver of my excitement. I didn't expect the Perry Mason treatment regarding my admiration of the people involved.

Well that strikes me as weird, because it seemed like you admitted you know next to nothing about the script, you just know someone who wrote stuff you like co-wrote it (not even wrote it, just co-wrote it) and an actor you like said it's very good. That may be enough for you and that's fine, but that's not a substantial amount of information, which is what I said.

I'm fine with fans acting like fans, it's when they act like fanatics that I get worried. That's not to say you're doing that, but an extreme degree of excitement-- more than I've seen in this thread-- is what I'd call fanatical, and I'm sure you've seen it and seen those people become the most disappointed with the final product, whatever the product may be.

I don't think that's me, but better to be fanatical about something that to be coldly analytical to where I won't let myself savor the anticipation of something that has the potential to be awesome. I know all about disappointment. I'm not scared of it.

That's not quite what I'm doing, it's similar though. I have some reading to do to be sure of what I've heard, and hopefully if this ever comes up again I can give you a short version of how I approach things.

I revise my statement. I've always appreciated Harrison Ford. His early work is fantastic (even the non-action stuff like American Graffiti and Witness). There are a few movies he's done that I'm not sure I'll like, but I haven't watched them in part because they weren't well received, but Ford is the kind of actor who can be better than the movie he's in. Actors (and writers, for that matter) have a limited amount of control over making a film good. Being involved in something that won't turn out as well as you'd like it to is precisely the situation he was worried about with the new Star Wars, which is why your logic is silly--you assume that his judgment of scripts is necessarily reflected in every movie he's made.

That's almost the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying that his judgment would be reflected in the scripts he made as a whole, which is why I asked if there were any that you didn't like. If it applied the same to every one then it wouldn't matter, you could look at one and apply it to all of them.

You speak a version of English I don't understand. "As a whole" implies to me that there might be exceptions, but generally something is true. The bottom line: I respect and give credence to Ford's opinion when he says a script is remarkable.

Good scripts get changed. Good scripts can get made into lousy movies. That said, bad scripts seldom get made into good movies. The man has starred in some of my favorite movies, so when he calls a script remarkable, that's an endorsement.

Here it sounds like you are just taking the movies you really like that he made and applying that to this with his positive comment about it.
I see your point about how not every movie will reflect his judgment, but that can be turned around-- what if this script has changed, what if it's poorly executed, what if there's some other hiccup?

What the eff if? That doesn't keep me from being excited about hearing him saying very nice things about the script. A good script is hard to find.

Also, not turning out as well as you wanted isn't the only issue with quality. Beyond some technical aspects, a movie is like any other work in that quality is subjective. My point was very much about, not the movie turning out badly, but the movie not turning out in a way you like. Tons of people, including presumably George Lucas himself, thought the prequels were fine, while you obviously consider them garbage.

Heh, find three people over the age of 30 who thought they were good.

That's a subjective thing, and something only you can decide, and something you can only decide once you've seen the movie. Please forgive me if this sounds obvious, but this was supporting the point that you're ill-informed on the movie as it stands, which you've now said is true.

Read my posts again. Where did I ever say that the new Star Wars movie is good? How could I know that? You keep responding as if I said that--I didn't. To be clear: As of now I've heard, read, and seen enough (which I bet money is more than you have) about the new movie such that I hope and expect it to be good, and therefore I'm excited about it. This wasn't true when the movie was announced, but every bit of info I've gleaned since then has gradually gotten me to this point, not least of which what I heard and saw last week. I wouldn't have gotten into this discussion had you not said "we know next to nothing about the script" when what I knew about the script has been a big driver of my excitement. I didn't expect the Perry Mason treatment regarding my admiration of the people involved.

I think you're reading it wrong. He betrayed my faith in him as a creator. It's another way of saying I lost confidence in his judgment and his abilities as an artist. If he decided the make documentaries, or art house films about migrant workers or something, I wouldn't feel justified calling it a betrayal just because he's not making space operas any more. If Bungie decides that what will work best for them as a studio involves making a game for a different platform, that's not a betrayal. That's a business decision. (If I felt differently, I would have been part of the crowd that ditched Bungie in 2000.)

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the other movies he's made since the original trilogy, or have you seen any of them? I heard Red Tails was pretty good.

Haven't seen any and don't really care to. It's not just his artistic abilities I don't trust anymore. He's shown himself to be an idiot and an ass. I'm not interested in supporting him.

My hopes are intertwined with my excitement for the new Star Wars movie. I'll never understand how fan sites seem to attract people who object to fans who act like fans.

I'm fine with fans acting like fans, it's when they act like fanatics that I get worried. That's not to say you're doing that, but an extreme degree of excitement-- more than I've seen in this thread-- is what I'd call fanatical, and I'm sure you've seen it and seen those people become the most disappointed with the final product, whatever the product may be.

I don't think that's me, but better to be fanatical about something that to be coldly analytical to where I won't let myself savor the anticipation of something that has the potential to be awesome. I know all about disappointment. I'm not scared of it.

Pain and Gain? That was a piece of shit. Really. (Wasn't even that fun as a piece of shit.)

Nah, look beyond the lame jokes. Underneath there's something poignant about Misdirected American Machismo.

I revise my statement. I've always appreciated Harrison Ford. His early work is fantastic (even the non-action stuff like American Graffiti and Witness). There are a few movies he's done that I'm not sure I'll like, but I haven't watched them in part because they weren't well received, but Ford is the kind of actor who can be better than the movie he's in. Actors (and writers, for that matter) have a limited amount of control over making a film good. Being involved in something that won't turn out as well as you'd like it to is precisely the situation he was worried about with the new Star Wars, which is why your logic is silly--you assume that his judgment of scripts is necessarily reflected in every movie he's made.

That's almost the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying that his judgment would be reflected in the scripts he made as a whole, which is why I asked if there were any that you didn't like. If it applied the same to every one then it wouldn't matter, you could look at one and apply it to all of them.

Good scripts get changed. Good scripts can get made into lousy movies. That said, bad scripts seldom get made into good movies. The man has starred in some of my favorite movies, so when he calls a script remarkable, that's an endorsement.

Here it sounds like you are just taking the movies you really like that he made and applying that to this with his positive comment about it.
I see your point about how not every movie will reflect his judgment, but that can be turned around-- what if this script has changed, what if it's poorly executed, what if there's some other hiccup?
Also, not turning out as well as you wanted isn't the only issue with quality. Beyond some technical aspects, a movie is like any other work in that quality is subjective. My point was very much about, not the movie turning out badly, but the movie not turning out in a way you like. Tons of people, including presumably George Lucas himself, thought the prequels were fine, while you obviously consider them garbage. That's a subjective thing, and something only you can decide, and something you can only decide once you've seen the movie. Please forgive me if this sounds obvious, but this was supporting the point that you're ill-informed on the movie as it stands, which you've now said is true.

I think you're reading it wrong. He betrayed my faith in him as a creator. It's another way of saying I lost confidence in his judgment and his abilities as an artist. If he decided the make documentaries, or art house films about migrant workers or something, I wouldn't feel justified calling it a betrayal just because he's not making space operas any more. If Bungie decides that what will work best for them as a studio involves making a game for a different platform, that's not a betrayal. That's a business decision. (If I felt differently, I would have been part of the crowd that ditched Bungie in 2000.)

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the other movies he's made since the original trilogy, or have you seen any of them? I heard Red Tails was pretty good.

My hopes are intertwined with my excitement for the new Star Wars movie. I'll never understand how fan sites seem to attract people who object to fans who act like fans.

I'm fine with fans acting like fans, it's when they act like fanatics that I get worried. That's not to say you're doing that, but an extreme degree of excitement-- more than I've seen in this thread-- is what I'd call fanatical, and I'm sure you've seen it and seen those people become the most disappointed with the final product, whatever the product may be.

Maybe! It's not a very pleasant movie, but I think it's a good expression of Bay's interests, so I respect it. It's all about how the ideas people usually think of as 'Bayhem' - money, men, muscles, cars, models - are actually toxic, vile attempts to cover up for insecurity and need. I think a lot of Bay's work is satire of this stuff.

Pain & Gain starts with Mark Wahlberg doing curls while strapped to a gigantic billboard bicep. It's pretty unsubtle, but pretty funny.

The Transformers movies are also funny (though I will never recommend them) because Optimus Prime is clearly a supervillain, and Bay seems to want the audience to see through the rhetoric about Freedom and Protection to realize he's a monster. Every movie he makes Prime more despicable. I wonder if it makes him sad that no one catches on.

edit: in Transformers: Age of Extinction, Optimus Prime beats up a fellow robot while shouting 'Let me lead you!', 'We're giving you freedom!', and 'You defend my family or die!' Afterwards he says 'Now we're going to prove who we are' and one of his followers says 'Man, you just want to die for the guy.' Bay is really angry at his audience.

There can definitely be value in that, but I think that still plays into the misgivings people have about adapting the property-- I'm pretty sure Transformers wasn't supposed to be nearly that deep or nuanced originally, and adding that in makes it into kind of a whole different thing. Also I thought something similar about Spartan Ops (it's self-parody at times) and people told me I was giving the writers way too much credit, so....

General Grievous: You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku!
Obi-Wan: Really? I trained the man who killed him.

"Traitor" was brilliantly executed! I loved every bit of the Vergere-Solo dynamic in there (not so much in "Destiny's Way").

Now I have to look up more SW novels by him. Finally something to read during my vacations!

Yeah, Traitor is brilliant. It makes me sad how misunderstood it was by the other Star Wars authors. Troy Denning and Karen Traviss butchered Verger's teachings and Jacen's philosophies beyond recognition :(

On the bright side, you should definitely look in to Stover's other novels if you haven't already.

Shatterpoint - Clone Wars era, Mace Windu solo story. Great development of Mace's character.
Revenge of the Sith - Approximately 1 billion times better than the movie.
Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor - Takes place shortly after Jedi, Luke, Han, Lea, Chewy and the Droids on a classic SW adventure. Actually ties in to Shatterpoint as well.
Traitor - Takes a previously lousy character (Jacen) and turns him into my favorite SW character of all time in a single novel :)

Now I have to look up more SW novels by him. Finally something to read during my vacations!

The Transformers movies are also funny (though I will never recommend them) because Optimus Prime is clearly a supervillain, and Bay seems to want the audience to see through the rhetoric about Freedom and Protection to realize he's a monster. Every movie he makes Prime more despicable. I wonder if it makes him sad that no one catches on.

edit: in Transformers: Age of Extinction, Optimus Prime beats up a fellow robot while shouting 'Let me lead you!', 'We're giving you freedom!', and 'You defend my family or die!' Afterwards he says 'Now we're going to prove who we are' and one of his followers says 'Man, you just want to die for the guy.' Bay is really angry at his audience.

Huh... I never clicked to any of that. Almost makes me want to go back and re watch them. Almost... :)

Gotta say, that movie was definitely thrown under a bus by someone. The book is astoundingly better than it. Even Anakin is great.

I remember reading that before the movie came out (Over ten years ago now), and it was pretty good. I distinctly remember wondering why the book had so many good one-liners that were omitted from the movie.

General Grievous: You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku!
Obi-Wan: Really? I trained the man who killed him.

Nah, the special editions just seem to be him adding random things left and right just because he could. He adds in rocks that make no logical sense in certain scenes, some creatures that absolutely serve no purpose other than to clutter the scene and take away from the overall atmosphere, etc. While he may have wanted some of these things originally, the random, out-of-place inclusions in the special editions are sloppy at best and frivolous at worst.

hmm, I may have to look more closely

As for the acting, while some of them are great actors, the point I was making is that they didn't come off as great actors because of the material they were being given and by how Lucas was directly telling them to act and display emotion (primarily with nothing to work with aside from green/blue screen) on top of the horrible script. And I don't just disagree with you, but I'd dare to say you are absolutely 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt empirically and objectively wrong when you say that the lines are delivered beautifully. Those movies are some of Natalie Portman's worst as far as acting goes (and, again, I am totally not faulting her or any of the other actors for that based on behind-the-scenes materials from those god awful movies), not to mention the other actors. The deliveries are largely as soulless as the material itself, and a lot of that is because Lucas was actually telling them to deliver it that way.

Well I didn't mean to say it was all beautiful. (Since it was pointed out to me how Hayden Christensen isn't so much Anakin Skywalker as he is The Incredible Wooden Man, and I first listened for it, it's hard not to hear it.) I meant there are gems in there; oddly enough, or fittingly enough, it seems like aside from Anakin the more powerful the character the better they acted their part. I mean, can you really say Christopher Lee and Ian McDiarmid didn't at the very least do a competent job with what they were given? That's a good point about the green screens, you see the difficulty of acting against that mentioned in interviews about a lot of effects-heavy movies including the prequels, and it makes me a little more optimistic about the new one with it being more physical.

Maybe! It's not a very pleasant movie, but I think it's a good expression of Bay's interests, so I respect it. It's all about how the ideas people usually think of as 'Bayhem' - money, men, muscles, cars, models - are actually toxic, vile attempts to cover up for insecurity and need. I think a lot of Bay's work is satire of this stuff.

This line pretty much sums up the film's satire for me:

"If you're willing to do the work, you can have anything. That's what makes the U.S. of A great. When it started, America was just a handful of scrawny colonies. Now, it's the most buff, pumped-up country on the planet. That's pretty rad."

We don't know anything substantial about the story.

I don't want to know anything more about the story.

Oh I get that, I'm just saying you can't know if it's good if you don't know what the story is yet.

Of course. I never said I knew it would be good. At this point I feel like I have many reasons to think it is likely to be, and that excites me.

To be fair, I had forgotten they got him as the writer on this one. Still, has he never written anything you didn't like?

I've liked everything I've seen that he's worked on.

fair enough

Has Harrison Ford not signed on to any movies you didn't like?

Sure; a few. See my comment to Cody about that quote.

Your quote to Cody was that you don't think he's lying. I don't think he's lying either, but I don't know that his sensibilities and yours line up. You're saying now that they don't always line up; if I was you that wouldn't only make me excited, I would also consider the possibility of this being a case where his thoughts don't line up with mine.

I revise my statement. I've always appreciated Harrison Ford. His early work is fantastic (even the non-action stuff like American Graffiti and Witness). There are a few movies he's done that I'm not sure I'll like, but I haven't watched them in part because they weren't well received, but Ford is the kind of actor who can be better than the movie he's in. Actors (and writers, for that matter) have a limited amount of control over making a film good. Being involved in something that won't turn out as well as you'd like it to is precisely the situation he was worried about with the new Star Wars, which is why your logic is silly--you assume that his judgment of scripts is necessarily reflected in every movie he's made. Good scripts get changed. Good scripts can get made into lousy movies. That said, bad scripts seldom get made into good movies. The man has starred in some of my favorite movies, so when he calls a script remarkable, that's an endorsement.

...

Nearly every blockbuster movie since Star Wars has been influenced by Star Wars. It's hard to describe the effect that movie had on the culture. I've not been very engaged either, but the prequels felt like a betrayal of my faith in Lucas as a creator. The mucking with the originals upon rerelease should've been the canary in the coal mine, but I wanted to believe. I'm not going to let my disappointment in that quell my excitement over what looks like an good faith effort to right the Star Wars ship.

Weren't you one of the people complaining about people who said they felt they were owed something other than the final game by Bungie or other developers? Yet here you are talking about George Lucas's betrayal, like there was some kind of agreement between you, like you knew him. Maybe I'm reading "a betrayal of my faith" wrong, but any way I look at it it seems melodramatic.

I think you're reading it wrong. He betrayed my faith in him as a creator. It's another way of saying I lost confidence in his judgment and his abilities as an artist. If he decided the make documentaries, or art house films about migrant workers or something, I wouldn't feel justified calling it a betrayal just because he's not making space operas any more. If Bungie decides that what will work best for them as a studio involves making a game for a different platform, that's not a betrayal. That's a business decision. (If I felt differently, I would have been part of the crowd that ditched Bungie in 2000.)

I'm not being cynical. I don't think they're deliberately misrepresenting the movie. If you mean "why are you so pessimistic?", I don't think I'm even being pessimistic, I'm trying to be realistic. I don't say stuff like this because I think something will be bad or to make other people think things will be bad, and in this case it's not even really about lowering expectations, it's about encouraging people to think things through. Maybe there's more material out there than I've heard about, AFAIK it's the video above, one teaser, some stills, some vague quotes like the one you gave, and a list of people working on it, and I don't think that's enough to have an informed opinion.

I've stated all the reasons I'm excited, and I don't need any more information--I know enough to be hopeful about Star Wars again, and that a big deal for me because the franchise was a very important part of my childhood.

Being hopeful and being excited are two different things. Hope is great, hope makes life worth living, hope doesn't need evidence, nor should it. Excitement, on the other hand, should be backed up by something, I think.

My hopes are intertwined with my excitement for the new Star Wars movie. I'll never understand how fan sites seem to attract people who object to fans who act like fans.