Chapter 14 :: A Lannister always pays it debts

If you have something to say about it, post it there.

Oh, right, now it's completely clear, random metaphor guy. Keep up the good work.

¬¬

I think he was on drugs when he wrote these posts.

All silliness aside, I was being serious when I asked

What is it about my post that gives you that conclusion?

Thus far every post I have seen that speaks about my Mega Post has been fairly positive sans this one.

What is it about my post that gives you that conclusion? or perhaps an even better question would be, What could I improve on?

Sometimes I feel like I'm living in bizzaro world when I bring up some of these issues and all I get back is "Destiny is fun and I love it so why are you saying anything bad about it don't be so toxic". So it's kind of nice to hear from someone in the industry that, yeah, there are a lot of issues here, even if the original concept was gobsmackingly amazing.

That's funny because I feel like I'm living in a bizzaro world nearly every time I read one of these treatises on the "fundamental flaws" in Destiny. I haven't worked in the gaming industry, but I have worked in the software industry for over 16 years, and I've spent several of those years sitting in meetings with coders and testers and UI analysts. Building a game like Destiny is hard, and I know enough to know that what seems to be an obviously bad design choice is often the least bad choice once you know the obstacles the team faced and their goals. I say that because what's often lacking in these self-anointed expert critiques is humility regarding our limited outsider perspective. Ignorant theories are thrown about (e.g., the Grimoire folks cribbed from Staten, etc.), and I find the hyperbole ridiculous--another studio will put a "true game" in the Destiny engine? GTFO!

INSANEdrive's MEGA-POST doesn't strike me that way because he regularly acknowledges his own subjectivity, the limits of his knowledge, and that other opinions exist. I enjoyed reading it even though I don't agree with a lot of it (or, to the extent I agreed, my disappointments with the game haven't left me in the same place as INSANEdrive [Dude, I hope you don't lose all hope--year two might end up surprising you]). Especially enjoyed all the linky bits. I now love KP more than I knew.

(Bold wording is my edit.) I'm a Bungie fan. I have not lost hope in Bungie, just been very disappointed for Year One. Bungie has a few more years to get it right. I'm glad you enjoyed all the links I've embedded into my Mega Post. Did you click the link in my chapter 13 title? The links have three purposes. TO give context, to imply an idea or feeling that I did not have room to give words to (or just does a better job saying it), or is just me being silly and having fun with the moment. They've gone to plaid!

While this reply above is not exactly directed towards me, I am glad you have enjoyed reading my Mega Post Kermit.

Kahzgul: Well the Grimoire's writing is great, so good on the team that wrote it. Kinda sucks that the good writing all ended up on a website and the bad writing ended up in the actual game.

That is rather curious isn't it. Actually... that is very interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Kahzgul: Just for clarity: I *was* in the industry about 10 years ago, and I was in it for 13 years, off and on, up to that point. Now I edit television.

10 years ago I was modding Halo PC. Oh geez... its been 10 years already!? ;_;

Some guy on Reddit thinks your post is crazy poignant.

https://np.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3kkyho/bungie_has_moved_on_but_they_havent_forgotten_the/cuynmiz

I still haven't finished reading it.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Funkmon. I don't frequent Reddit much, if at all, so if you could reply with a thanks it would be appreciated.

https://np.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3kkyho/bungie_has_moved_on_but_they_havent_forgotten_the/cuynmiz

I still haven't finished reading it.

... but you admit something went wrong?

Out of this whole thread, this lines really bothered me. If you don't like Destiny, OK, whatever. Maybe you think "something went wrong." But then it feels like you take it a step further and want everyone to agree that "something went wrong."

When I started thinking about that response and what those words mean, it became almost comical. In one of the largest video games ever released, did something go wrong? Of course! It would be completely delusional to think that nothing went wrong.

But, the question then becomes: does that matter? I tend to say, no.

I like the game. I've played it a lot. Could parts be better? Sure. I truly believe that parts of the game, particularly the vault of glass, are the pinnacles of gameplay experience of my entire lifetime.

Reading some of this stuff, it feels like there is still anger about what the game is and what people think it should have been. I'm not angry about how I think the game should have been or how it is. I dislike this he-said, she-said, good-developers-do-this, bungie-did-that narrative that people are spinning, and I tend to agree with Kermit's post: this stuff feels like gossip.

... but you admit something went wrong?

I guess I don't see it as my role to do these armchair postmortems. I don't know enough. I don't think anyone who didn't actually work on Destiny does.

Does it bother you so that people try to figure out what went wrong? It's a pretty human thing, trying to build narratives to better understand our world.

It's a great human thing. When we can test the narrative it's called science. In the realm of values and the meaning of existence this narrative is called philosophy. In the spiritual realm it's called religion. I call 95% of the narratives about the development of Destiny gossip.

Really though. Wow.

It almost feels like you adopted my post abit. I love the conversation you got going here with Fuertisimo and uberfoop. I'm going to leave most of it for now (I don't have time to read it all right now). This is cool. I'm just respond to your initial post for right now.

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I worked in test for 13 years. ...

With regards to Activision, I worked there for many years. There are good people there, and some of those people, whom I personally worked with, certainly worked on Destiny. They would not intentionally crap up a game. I can see them intentionally demanding that work be focused on certain activities (PvP being the most likely culprit, with a "satisfying" story being the number 2). Unfortunately, neither of the activities I'd suspect Activision to ask for were focused on in the final game in any way that at all resembles what I'd expect from Activision (or Bungie, but that's the whole issue, isn't it). It's certainly possible that the entire game was a shambles 1 year out, and Activision did demand that at least something resembling PvP make it into the final game, and something resembling a conclusion to at least one storyline make it into the final game. Totally possible. But, again, if that's the case than the issue is really how bad the game was 1 year out, and that falls pretty squarely on Bungie's shoulders. By the way, test teams at ATVI back when I was there would not be working on the game until about 8 months out; they're relying on Bungie's internal testers up to that point. ...

It's odd, isn't it? How "faceless corporations" always seem to have punchable faces.

I thank you for your input, as it is going a long way. Unfortunately the only exposure I've received about Activision (and others) are second hand stories about people doing fifteen hour shifts easy with no overtime pay for weeks at a time. Crunch months instead of crunch weeks because "faceless corp" can get away with it. The workers are doing what they love and a number of them don't have families. Essentially its been don't work for a studio totally owned by Activision or EA, as you are a number and you are easily replaceable. Perhaps that is more for juniors since grass is easier to mow then trees (I just thought of that metaphor. Hmm). That said - 13 years is a long time. Is that recently or long ago? No dates needed.

INSANEdrive nailed it on the difference between having enemies and having enemies with character. The personality of a fallen dreg is virtually indistinguishable from the personality of a hive acolyte. The art is just about all that is different about them. That's the worst offender, but there are other enemies who behave in similar ways or with only minor differences, as I'm sure you all know. So the game feels stale immediately. Making matters worse, simple design choices such as having level 2 be, in part, level 1 backwards, make me, as a player, feel like Bungie didn't make a big enough world to support distinct level design. And I was given that feeling at the earliest possible moment for that feeling to be given to me, at level 2!

And, with regards to TTK, I'm fully in agreement with you.

Very well written, and I agree with almost all of your points.

My one quibble: I don't think Bungie hates PvE. Or even solo PvE though I admit that HoW is incredibly frustrating to play solo. Rather, it seems to me that the focus of the game's initial design was to create compulsive gameplay rather than compelling gameplay. Experience bars, RNG loot, repetitive strike modes, daily reset timers, weekly reset timers, timed events, events with social obligations... they all fall into the category of addiction-building activities. I'm not saying that these things are all bad, but I am saying that they appear to have been more important in the design space than, say, a coherent plot or interesting characters. I hope TTK's change to "story based everything" (allegedly) marks a sea-change in the design focus of the game. The core elements of art, movement, and backstory for Destiny are phenomenal. Amazing. Unbelievably good. The server architecture for patrol mode matching is ground-breaking technology (though, to be honest, it is also so underutilized as to be unnecessary). The game engine, then, is a thing of true beauty, but the game itself lacks. Maybe Bungie will sell the engine rights to some other company with vision to put a true game into that shell. Or maybe Bungie will do it themselves. But, again, I don't think it's a hatred of PvE that led us here so much as a focus on the non-game elements and the addictive elements over the gameplay and plot. For me, personally, gameplay and plot are the most important parts of every game.

Keep in mind, I don't think Bungie hates PvE, and I say as much basically each time it is brought up. The "addiction" factor was originally part of my overall overview, but I scrapped in my early drafts. In fact I think in my link dump I have a TED video about how sugar effects the brain, which I found oddly relevant to Destiny.

Again - in the end, while you bring up relevant points about addictive elements of gameplay, I cut those aspects because I feel that at Destinies core, the embedded and ABSOLUTELY CORE social aspect overrides the addictive elements. Looking for beacons with someone else? It's... alright. It's laid back just jumping around the wilderness. By yourself though? Ugh. A total chore. Hence my choice of mentioning how "multiplayer is singleplayer" and so forth.

It's that focus that bit them. They were so focused on getting it right with a group of people that it seems they missed asking the question "Is this fun to do by your self?".

Oh, right, now it's completely clear, random metaphor guy. Keep up the good work.

¬¬

I think he was on drugs when he wrote these posts.

I thought so too, but then I told the self in the mirror that I wasn't. I believed 'im. I then had to get a broom to shovel off all the dead spiders on my skin. No... wait. I ate them, because I'm a hairy butterfly in a horse costume. So kind of like the webmaster... but without pants. :D

Seems legit. It's on the internet.

Fun satiric mockery of an idea aside, I have to ask. What is it about my post that gives you that conclusion? Be honest. You aren't going to hurt my feelings.

...or let it go*.
*I REGRET NOTHING!

He's basically saying that Bungie designed the game to actively discourage solo, non-pvp play.

oh
so?

Since you cared enough to post -> Click here for your answer.

Ragashingo Yes, Bungie probably didn't tell us about no third Raid soon enough. If my theory about PoE being the third raid is true then they also probably didn't explain why there was no third Raid anywhere near well enough. But, at the same time, I simply cannot understand getting so angry at not receiving a feature that you were never promised. Written and then scathing posts? Headache inducing facepalms? Last straws? Based merely on incomplete, out of date leaked info and unsupported expectation? I am of the opinion that a lot of the scathing criticism that is held against Bungie should really be turned back on players and fans who overreacted and blew this issue way out of proportion.

cheapLEY: This is my biggest issue with all the negativity surrounding Destiny. In my limited experience, most of it is based on incomplete information and assumptions. Expectations for things that were never promised or intended. In this instance, it's perhaps more true than in general. Bungie never so much as mentioned a Raid for HoW, yet everyone took it for granted that we'd have one. It's the kind of attitude that has pervaded every aspect of Destiny: people building their expectations up as gospel for what Bungie promised, even when they did no such thing.

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While I do mention a number of times in my post about expectation (and it's pitfalls), there is an important distinction that seems I did not word thoroughly enough, soon enough, though I did try.

Key phrases of which being:

So with the announcement of no raid, there was also a mentioning of the "Prison of Elders". It was this that got me so angry.

... While the masses outside DBO were bitching about No Raid, I was bitching in my aforementioned unposted post about no communication about the raid.

The problem with bringing this up now instead of then is that posts that acted as a catalyst to my reaction grew cold and "hidden" into the net. My reaction stemmed from witnessing, again and again, the general outcry of various forums. Everything simply came to a head at House of Wolves. Little things where had due diligence been made, things may have turned out less sour. You are right, and I commend your points given in your post Ragashingo. There was expectation for the next raid even though there shouldn't have been. Yet - that is the issue.

Again it's not the topic it's self that got me so burned.

It's that it seems to me, instead of responding and doing damage control beforehand, Bungie is just reacting after the damage is done. That's how I got to my end conclusion. To me that is sloppy. If it happened only every now and again... not big deal.

But...

Arbitrarily speaking - Fool me once. Twice. Three times? Four times!? Five?!?!? What the...

If I had the helm I would have done something. I don't know what limits DeeJ & urk have, but in simply for the sake of presenting my thoughts I gave my idea to help further establish my concerns; Hence what I have presented in Chapter 7. It just felt like... a bunch of amateurs are behind the wheel. I feel could do better even though I have no idea what I'm doing.

Oh, right, now it's completely clear, random metaphor guy. Keep up the good work.

¬¬

I think he was on drugs when he wrote these posts.

Does it bother you so that people try to figure out what went wrong? It's a pretty human thing, trying to build narratives to better understand our world.

Cool so you've got less experience with it all than Kaz does but choosing to pull the "I know how it really is" card, amusingly taking no issue with anything he has said, but rather with me for stating that a lot of what I experienced as a user lined up very closely with his impressions of what went wrong, but I totally don't know what I'm talking about because I don't know how it really is.

Glad you enjoy Destiny and TK, and hopefully Destiny will become a product that I also enjoy in the future.

Neither of you know what went wrong, and whatever you think is wrong with the game is your opinion regardless, and you're welcome to it. So is INSANEdrive.I thought I made that clear. That I have a different reaction to K's hyperbolic proclamations and the certainty with which he presents them doesn't mean your reaction to his posts isn't valid. I've picked them apart before and it's tiresome. Here's one point: he's says that Bungie has been slow to fix issues they knew about. That's about priority and I do know enough to know that there are often good technical reasons smaller issues are fixed before larger ones. No one outside of Bungie is privy to what competing priorities they have when they make decisions. Bungie put out 40 patches in one year--what other AAA dev has done that? But again, it's not the criticism that's the problem. It's the style.

Glad you enjoy Destiny and TK, and hopefully Destiny will become a product that I also enjoy in the future.

Sometimes I feel like I'm living in bizzaro world when I bring up some of these issues and all I get back is "Destiny is fun and I love it so why are you saying anything bad about it don't be so toxic". So it's kind of nice to hear from someone in the industry that, yeah, there are a lot of issues here, even if the original concept was gobsmackingly amazing.

That's funny because I feel like I'm living in a bizzaro world nearly every time I read one of these treatises on the "fundamental flaws" in Destiny. I haven't worked in the gaming industry, but I have worked in the software industry for over 16 years, and I've spent several of those years sitting in meetings with coders and testers and UI analysts. Building a game like Destiny is hard, and I know enough to know that what seems to be an obviously bad design choice is often the least bad choice once you know the obstacles the team faced and their goals. I say that because what's often lacking in these self-anointed expert critiques is humility regarding our limited outsider perspective. Ignorant theories are thrown about (e.g., the Grimoire folks cribbed from Staten, etc.), and I find the hyperbole ridiculous--another studio will put a "true game" in the Destiny engine? GTFO!

INSANEdrive's MEGA-POST doesn't strike me that way because he regularly acknowledges his own subjectivity, the limits of his knowledge, and that other opinions exist. I enjoyed reading it even though I don't agree with a lot of it (or, to the extent I agreed, my disappointments with the game haven't left me in the same place as INSANEdrive [Dude, I hope you don't lose all hope--year two might end up surprising you]). Especially enjoyed all the linky bits. I now love KP more than I knew.